George wanted him fired. That's a fact. Cashman wanted him back. I didn't say he got garbage, I said he didn't get any value. Sanchez was damaged goods and he was the main player for Sheffield. He got nothing to replace Johnson's 34 wins unless they bring Ohlendorf up. A SS prospect is going nowhere in this organization. http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseb...90oct11,0,542821.column?coll=ny-yankees-print One of a million articles you can find on who wanted Torre fired ^^ "Brian Cashman's protests aside, no doubt there was plenty of truth in the reports of the past three days, that Steinbrenner wanted to fire Torre to cleanse himself of the stench of losing."
So Torre gave up the GS? You blame TRorre for bringing in a lefty specialist against a lefty that was 3for 3 against us prior to the HR? Just b/c we lose doesn't mean it's Joe's fault and when we win we don't always win inspite of him. There is WAY too much panic going on around here, it's April, we might be in "last place" but we are only 4 games back. Things will settle down, don't hang yourselves yet.
That's true enough. You just have to wonder when the time will come that you can't dig out of a hole. Last year was much worse then where we are now.
And like clockwork, you make sure you defend Torre. Thanks for not letting me down junc. So in your opinion, it was okay to yank Vizcaino, yet again, to put Myers in, who has already had some difficulty coming in for his spot appearances? That's okay management of this team in your opinion? Who is panicking around here? If anything, the Yankees, by promoting Hughes at least 2 months before they ever planned to, are the ones panicking. Well, maybe not Joe. He never panicks. Actually, sometimes I wonder if he's even still breathing.
Okay, so I was misinformed about the Torre situation. Fine, no biggie. It could have also been to see if Donnie has the ability to take over. A sort of trial phase. As far as complaining about the deals, such as the Johnson trade, you are guilty of the same thing as the Yankees. You have to look out towards the future. These deals are not for immediate gains. Johnson is at the end of his career. Regardless of those 17 Ws a year, we got value back. As for Sheff, is his AVG above .100 yet? Even with a SS as part of a deal, at the very least, if we cultivate him, he's nothing worse than trade bait. Sheff had no place on this team, and Johnson was never comfortable pitching here. What Cashman did was pure theft.
I didn't care if Johnson was comfortable, he was winning games anyway. Sheffield sucks so far, no doubt. But would he in NY? He could have DHed and Giambi, as bad as he is defensively, could still be playing 1st. What have we gotten offensively out of who is at first now? Or defensively even?
2 years ago today we were 4.5 games back in last place. I think as of today we are ok and we'll dig out, I agree we can't get too far behind but the staff should be getting healthier so we'll see what happens. You are hysterical, you call me out for all the things you do such as not reading your own posts and like clockwork YOU are always bashing Torre. I wouldn't have to mention Joe if you didn't blame him for EVERY loss. Randy and Sheff weren't getting the job doe as we expected, those trades were great as we got some good prospects out of the deal and it gave us more payroll flexibility(sounds silly but it did). Randy didn't make his first start until last night(and he stunk) so we would have had 4 starters on the DL in April if we still had Randy.
The problem with that is that there was no way Giambi was going to play first. Even if Sheff was still here, he'd probably have been the first baseman. Or, they would have dealt Abreu. Either way, given his lack of production, dumping him and getting anything in return is a steal. Defensively, Mienky and Phelps have been okay. Not superstars, but okay. And we knew that offensively, 1B was not going to provide Mattingly/Tino/Giambi numbers. We simply reduced payroll and hoped for the best. Still doesn't change the fact that RJ started the year on the DL, which we knew he would. Plus, there's no guarantee that post-surgery, he would ever be a shadow of his former self again. Another move that has more potential upside than clear down. Could Sheff turn it around and hit 25HR, 85 RBI? Sure. Will he? Doubtful. Could Randy win 15-18 games, take home a Cy Young, be the dominant pitcher that killed us in the WS? Sure. Will he? Also doubtful. You have to wait it out with the talent we got in return. It was an investment, and helped restock a decimated farm system. That's key to titles in the 20-teens. Winning every year is fun, sure, but I want to actually win, and so far, this 80s mentality of win it this October has been more shooting ourselves in the foot than trying to build yet another dynasty team.
I think we're all confident this slide is temporary. We need healthy bodies. It is okay to be pissed off though. Yeah, I blame Joe for misusing pitching. I blame Joe for a totally obvious lack of motivation in his players. Yes, I will continue to bash Torre every single game until he 1) changes his behavior (which he never will,) or 2) gets the damn axe. We do totally agree on this front. Amazing, but true.
I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said in this post. I just think we should have known more about Sanchez who may never come back. We should have held out for the pitcher we wanted in the Johnson deal, although Ohlendorf may end up good anyway. In both cases I blame Cashman, right or wrong. I was just thinking. Johnson came back the same day as Wang. I would have rather been waiting for Johnson to return from surgery then I am now, waiting yet again, for Pavano to come back from an enflamed pimple or whatever he has with no timetable in sight.
Eh, that's fair enough. I just think we got a lot more potential value than we could expect from Sheff (who I still believe went out all of last year to clean his urine of steroid samples,) and Randy, who we knew for sure was having back surgery. Sometimes you have to take a calculated risk. I think that's what Cashman did here. Was it wrong? Perhaps. But I still think we need at least through next season to tell for sure.
I rarely agree with junc but what exactly is your problem with this move? You have a problem with pulling a guy who had pitched 4 out of the last 5 days, giving up 6 runs over that time for a lefty specialist with a lefty at the plate? Myers fucked up, these things happen but I don't see how you can say Torre made the wrong move in this case.
So he's pitched 4 of the last 5 days? So has everyone else. He looked fine to me. Myers being specifically brought in for exactly one hitter wastes another arm. Not just Myers' but someone else's too. (Usually either Proctor or Henn.) If this was a once-in-a-while occurrance, I'd have no right to complain. However, this is every single game. Every game we use more pitchers than necessary, then Torre wonders why guys can't move their arms. One mistake is fine. Two even. But when three and four start become six and eight, at some point, you have to take a step back and look at the overall issue. It's not like any Yankee fan with the exception of junc isn't complaining about the mismanagement skills of Joe Torre.
Well if you're not going to bring him in to pitch to Crawford then what you're really saying is he shouldn't be on the roster. Yes, over the course of his career Vizcaino has been pretty good against lefties, but if he was left in and gave up the Grand Slam you'd be killing Joe for leaving him out there. Like I said, if you want to argue that Myers shouldn't be on the team that's one thing, but that was a pretty textbook situation of when to bring a lefty in from the pen late in the game.
You make a fair point about Vizcaino. I might have complained anyway. Depends on whether I knew Myers was currently warming or not. If I know Myers is warming, and Viz has a chance to get the out, I don't complain, since it's against Joe's grain, meaning he is dropping his formula methodology. Sure, it's a textbook move. But not everything needs to be by the book every game. As for Myers, I have no issue with him being on the team. My biggest issue is he is used improperly. He proved he can pitch to multiple batters already, but Joe is back to the one-and-done method. And it's not just last night with Crawford. It's been the past week and a half. If you don't have confidence in guys to get the tough outs, when do you have confidence in them?
Well, unless it's multiple lefties in a row I sure wouldn't have any confidence in Myers to get a righty out. Over the past 3 years Myers has put up a .315/.425/.497 line against right handed batters. Sure if you're up 5 runs or something you might let him go an inning but in any kind of tight game letting him pitch to a righty is insane.
Then perhaps last night would have been a good night to give him a chance at some rest? See, that's where my issue lies. It's not necessarily any one pitcher, and the situation he is called upon to fill. It's the fact that night after night, regardless of the outcome, Joe will make the same exact moves, and he has no sense of overuse to the pen. Like devil mentioned earlier, I've never seen such a close to 50-50 split in innings between starters and relievers. You can't realistically believe you can win games that way, yet Joe does.
