Did anyone in this thread call Chad an "elite" QB or am I missing something. None of us feel that Chad is an elite QB but we do believe that he can manage and win games for us. Other fans can think whatever they want but both of the teams you mentioned haven't gone to the playoffs in a long time. Maybe they should be evaluating their own QB positions and then they can come back and talk. Here are some career stats for you to ponder while trying to think of a valid point to back up your arguement. Chad Pennington: 2002: 22 TD's 6 INT/68.9%/ 104.2 QB Rating: 9-4 2003: 13 TD's 12 INT/ 63.6%/ 82.9 QB Rating: 3-6 (injury plagued season) 2004: 16 TD's 9 INT/ 65.4%/ 91 QB Rating: 11-5 2005: 2 TD's 3 INT/ 59.0%/ 70.9 QB Rating: 1-2 (injury plagued season) 2006: 17 TD's 16 INT/ 64.5%/ 82.6 QB Rating: 10-6 Combined Record: 34-23 WP: 59.6% Joey Harrington: 2002: 12 TD's 16 INT/ 50.1%/ 59.9 QB Rating: 3-13 Record 2003: 17 TD's 22 INT/ 55.8%/63.9 QB Rating: 5-11 Record 2004: 19 TD's 12 INT/ 56%/ 77.5 QB Rating: 6-10 Record 2005: 12 TD's 12 INT/ 57%/ 72 QB Rating: 5-11 Record 2006: 12 TD's 15 INT/ 57.5%/ 68.2 QB Rating: 6-10 Combined Record: 25-55 WP: 31.3% David Carr: 2002: 9 TD's 15 INT/ 52.5%/ 62.8 QB Rating: 4-12 Record 2003: 9 TD's 13 INT/ 56.6%/ 69.5 QB Rating: 5-11 Record 2004: 16 TD's 14 INT/ 61.2%/ 83.5 QB Rating: 7-9 Record 2005: 14 TD's 11 INT/ 60.5%/ 77.2 QB Rating: 2-14 Record 2006: 11 TD's 12 INT/ 68.3%/ 82.1 QB Rating: 6-10 Record Combine Record: 24-56 WP: 30% Here are the stats that prove your theory wrong. Pennington's Winning percentage is immensely higher than either of the QB's you have mentioned. An even more important point is the number of playoff wins between the two above: 0.
Aye...I know for posting too much about Carr I'm going to be seen as a Carr lover. Not true, I'm arguing the logic behind this guys thinking here. 1. A QB can only do so much as have a good performance. Basing a players rating on how his TEAM does does not work logically. Seriously, whats the logic behind that? 2. One game does not a career make. It's a one game sample size of a 16 game career. Would a bad game for Peyton Manning make him a bad QB? BTW: a pick is a pick is a pick. The funny thing? David Carr threw for 323 yards that day, 1 TD, 1 INT, and completed 39 of 54 passes. The blame for that loss though? Right on Carr. 3. That 3 TD performance in the 4th, had they come back and won, would be praised as a "comeback." Why not get the same credit? He got the Texans CLOSER not further to tie/winning didn't he? What about the game where they beat the Texans and he had a 104 passer rating? 163 yards, a TD, and completed almost 70% of his passes. And if they had won those games, I'm thinking you'd be saying something completely different. 4. I never said Chad was a bad QB. I said he was a good QB who I saw as someone who was the perfect "stop gap" guy. Unfortunately he doesn't have a stop gap contract, but thats a whole other story. I've always thought QBs got way too much credit/discredit when it cames to a teams success. The idea that a QB is good or bad based on his TEAMS success is borderline retarded, and it's something I've hated about baseball and football for a long time. Just like it's illogical to base how good a pitcher is on his W-L record, it's horrible to judge a QB by that same logic. It's a TEAM, not QB game. Does Carr play on the defense that allowed 43 points in that first Colts game? No. Did he have a good game on the side he did play on? Yes, objectively and statistically theres no doubt about it. Question: I don't think I mentioned Pennington until this post in this thread. What makes you think I was a "Chad hater?" A little defensive maybe?
Responding to your points, 1. Yes, football is a team sport. But it is ineffective, in my opinion, to be quoting a QBs good stats when his team lost. First, because it's a QBs responsibility, more than any other position, to control the game. But, more importantly, because of the concept of garbage time, which you refuse to recognize. 2. Yes, one bad game does not a bad career make. I couldn't agree more. But look at Carr's career stats. Overall, they are unimpressive. So, on the flip side, don't quote the stats of Carr's good games because one good game does not a good career make. 3. If Carr had come back and won that game, he would have been praised. I agree. That has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I didn't say that Carr had a bad game against the Colts. He put up good numbers. What I was saying was that all those numbers came during garbage time. It is much easier for a QB to pad his stats in garbage time because the other team has iced the game and the defense only cares about protecting the big play. 4. You think Chad is a stop gap QB. That's fine, if that's your opinion. But the whole reason we started discussing Carr is because the creator of this thread claimed that there is no way Houston would be dumb enough to trade Carr for Chad. All I was trying to do is refute that point - not discuss the merits of Carr and his career on its own but compared to Chad.
It's EVERYONES responsibility to control the game. What happened to defense? They gave up 43 points in the game, wheres their fault in this loss? Why does it count against Carr? Why does it hurt his reputation even though he had a good game? Believe me, as an athlete I know the whole "Oh, the team lost so my performance doesn't count" routine. Its annoying, because in your head you know it did count. When you're analyzing a player, you don't start and finish by judging him on his TEAMS performance. I understand the "concept" of garbage time. The difference between a 30-3 game and a 43-24 game is huge. Did you watch that whole game to be able to classify his whole performance as garbage time? Or are you just seeing "oh they were losing, he threw TDs...duh garbage time?" Again, your logic here doesn't exist. Yes, most QBs will be unimpressive when they spend most of their career getting up from being sacked. The Texans are an idiot orginization that to this day is convinced their O-line is not the problem. Their owner cited everything BUT O-line as something they'd like to upgrade this offseason. I'm not saying Carr is a good QB. Do you even remember how these posts started? Someone (maybe you?) stated that Carr had never had a good game, and I merely called BS. Carr has had far from a stellar career, but considering his situation...he's been far from bad. Actually it has alot to do with what I'm saying. Horrible logic, horrible way to judge a player. And then you go right ahead and say that if those 3 TDs somehow led to them winning...he'd be praised. Which one is it...garbage time or comeback gone wrong? It can be spun either way. No, I started this because someone said Carr had never had a good game. While I do think Carr would outperform Chad if he were a Jet, theres no way to prove OR disprove that. Therefore I would not start or enter any Carr v. Chad situation simply because its not an argument thats going to happen fairly on a Jets board.
Another thing to consider is the way the media covers CP. When you look at the way the Monday night crew attempted to tear him apart and relentlessy talked trash about him through most of the game, is it any wonder that a lot of fans from other teams start to form the same opinion? Sorta the same way they tried to make us believe that Mike Vick was the second coming of Jesus Christ. At first, therer were probably a lot of believers. It usually takes something drastic to change ones opinion. I guess CP hasn't had that win or performance yet.
Please compare Chads stats to the Quarterbacks on the Teams we have to beat to get to the Championship. See how he does against Manning, Brady, Carson Palmer, Steve Mcnair, Phillip Rivers, Jay Cutler and Trent Green. If Chad is a Superbowl caliber Qb then you should compare his stats to the Quarterbacks he has to face come playoff time. He can Manage and win a game against Harrington. I think Carr would be way better than Pennington on the right team. Managing a game works when you play the Harringtons of the world but when you have to raise your game to a Championship level to get the ultimate goal that is where we see a huge drop off with Chad. He is the best of the Mediocre Qb's but unfortunately those are not the ones we have to face come playoff time. At some point he is going to stand up and make plays to get us over the hump. Unfortunately he has proven he can not get past the big boys. You can find all the meaningless stats that you want regarding Chad and his completion or passer rating but the bottom line is that means noting in Jan when he has to do it against a good team every week and has to win a game instead of manage a game not to loose. I used Carr and Harrington as an example of how Chad's skills as a Qb are perceived outside of New York. Im sure Brady's season stats are below alot of quarterbacks during the season but when it counts he is as good as it gets. I feel that Chad's time has come and gone to lead the Jets where they need to be.
The fact is your not always going to have elite players at every position. The NFL doesnt work like that. I mean Chads not Brady, Vilmas not Urlacher, Dyson isn't Bailey, and Washington isn't LT. The fact is you everyone bashes Chad for not being the elite qb, but hes good enough to get it done if he has the right players around him. It's not like its easy to find these elite qbs and the teams that have them are not willing to give them up. So whether you like Chad or not, its his job until he losses it. If you really want to analyze the teams chances of getting to the superbowl you have to include everybody. We have a lot more positions with less than medicore players than we do at QB.
Anyone who says that Carr would be better than Chad in the right situation has not actually been watching these two QBs. Carr stinks and Chad is solid. Chad isn't great and Carr isn't complete garbage. But to say that Carr is better than Chad is pure speculation, not based on stats or on actual experience watching the two QBs. It's really just buying into the hype that Carr brought in as the young hotshot college star and the hype of Chad and his noodle arm. Meanwhile, you can compare Chad's numbers to the QBs he has to face in the playoffs and say they are weaker. That's fine. Just remember that the only QBs currently starting in the NFL that have won the Superbowl are Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisburger, and Brad Johnson. Last season, Chad fell in the middle of that group. If you're going to talk about how Chad can't win the Superbowl, then I don't want to hear about Carson Palmer, Matt Hasselbeck, Marc Bulger, or Drew Brees either.
Well considering the advantages Pennington had over Carr (better line, better recievers), they are pretty damn similar statistically. That said, its true it's pure speculation to say that Carr would be better than Chad. But don't try to tell people there wrong when you can't disprove them, no one is "buying into Carr's hype." Considering ALL the factors around Carr...no line...no running game til the last 5 games of the season (they went 3-2)...and the fact that just two years ago he looked like one of the better young QBs in the game I don't think its stupid to say that Carr would thrive away from Texas. And what does it matter comparing Pennington to Super Bowl QBs? Those guys are not always the best QB, and you want the best QB possible. Hell, Pennington is a better QB than Dilfer, but I suppose that Dilfer is better because of his ring? Compare Pennington to EVERYONE (QBs), not just a select few guys whose TEAMS were good enough to get to and win the Super Bowl.
That's the fallacy of judging individuals on the basis of a team goal, a ring. Sometimes the guy you're judging is the difference maker one way or the other and sometimes not. It's the same logic that evaluates Patrick Ewing's career differently because John Starks had shot blocked. Starks make the shot and Ewing has a ring, so how do you figure that one? Same thing in football.
Football an absolute team game but the fact of the matter is that it a whole lot harder to help or Disguise any other position on a football field of weakness other than Qb. At some point during a Championship season that player is going to have to make a play or their lack of not making plays will hurt that team. I just don't like the odds of having a Qb where everything has to be perfect for the Jets to win. The weather, Defense has to play good Offense has to play great, Wr's have to make plays on five yard passes etc, etc. Chad can not win a game with his arm or leg. The only think he can not do is not loose one with his brain and when pressure is put on him he has crumbled like everybody else. I would rather have a Gunslinger like Farve who will play to win and let the chips fall where they might. If you look at all the teams we have to play against they have a decided advantage on the most important position on the field when they play us.
How long would Chad last with Houston's offensive line? Im sure most fans and football experts think it is only a matter of time before Brees and Palmer get a shot at the title when they have the right pieces in place. I do not think Chad can get it done unless he has a Baltimore Raven Defense in place on the Jets. If Any of those qb's you mentioned on the Jets I do not think many people would be debating if they should start next year or not.
A is as strong as it's weakest link and Our Qb Linc is weaker than the teams we have to beat to get to the promised land.
chad doesnt have it with that type of offense. he cant hit anyone on our team in stride....hed NEVER hit AJ in stride. chad cannot, CANNOT hit any wr on a deep-ish route IN STRIDE. every game they pass 15+ you see the reciever either slow down considerably, or stop to catch the ball. ive lost count how many long td's hes missed out on due to this....
Remember the classic dying duck pass against Miami in 2005! haha. Even with a completely destroyed shoulder, Chad still beat the Dolphins! I really hate those LOSERS!!!!!!
