Another thought just occurred to me regarding Bowers. Rodgers doesn't like throwing to the middle of the field, as it can lead to TOs. I'm not convinced that even if Hackett would and could change the offense to focus on the TE position, that Rodgers would agree or would make good use of Bowers. He probably has less arm strength at 41 than he did 5-10 years ago, and could be even more hesitant to throw over the middle a lot.
Most of the time Bowers would be in the slot, Conklin would be at TE. So to say Rogers doesn't throw to tight ends is meaningless.
Thanks for this reasoned and polite reply. I based what I posted on observations of the most successful teams that compete and have competed in the NFL. The most common denominator is that they all have high functioning QBs. For example our own Aaron Rodgers has obviously had a HOF career in GB, but can anyone tell us off hand who was blocking for him in those 15+ years. The same goes for Manning, Favre and Brady. Which begs the question does the QB make the offense go or is it the OL? Let's take the Houston Texans. They were a woeful 3-13-1 two seasons ago, but having hit on a QB (CJ Stroud) in the draft they turned it around to 10-7 and the playoffs last season. The same example applies to the Jaguars and Lawrence. They went from 3-14 to 9-8. Now, can we really say that the difference was the play of the OL? Let's take a reverse example. In 2014 the Cowboys were 12-4 when Romo went down. They had something like 4 all-pro's on the OL, yet that didn't save them from going 4-12 the following season using 3-4 different QBs (one of which was Sanchez.) When Dak Prescott took over the following year they went 13-3 with basically the same OL. This tells me that OL is important, yes, but QB is more important. I agree that the Jets OL last year had it's problems and maybe I downplayed it too much, but a lot of the problems were caused by 1) poor QB play 2) injury 3) constant shuffling of the lineup. Nevertheless, even with that, the Jets won 7 games and most feel had the QB play been average or slightly above, the team would have made the playoffs. Here's where we disagree: if I'm JD and Saleh and in the "have to win" situation, who would I rather have after signing two proven OTs? A stud receiver who can break open a game, or another OT, albeit highly rated. I don't think he has the luxury to think long term here. Believe me, I won't complain if he goes OT because I'm sure it will help, but if it was me on the hot seat, I think I'd rather have the HR hitter to get me over the hump. Just the way I see it, and I totally respect those who see it differently.
Yup…always up for a good discussion…I have no issues when posters disagree as long as the discussion is courteous and related to the topic as opposed to attacking the poster. We are ALL Jets fans here. But to the point at hand…I agree that the QB has a huge impact on the OL…football is the most inter-reliant sport in teamwork required. And the QB can help in different ways. With Brady, it was his innate ability to see the field and make the quick read and get the ball out NOW. With Mahomes, it’s different…with him, it’s his ability to elude the rush while keeping his focus downfield to hit open receivers. But for sure, the better the QB, the better the OL will look. That being said, a good OL can make an average QB look better than he otherwise would be…that’s what we saw when we had a great OL in front of Sanchez. Didn’t make him great…but it sure made him serviceable to an extent. So it does work both ways. My point of view is that our OL was WAY below average…regardless of the QB. Lots of that was injury for sure, but we had what I would say is a bottom 5 OL in the league. Couple that with bottom 3 QB play, and you get what we got…one of the worst offenses in the league. And even if we had had a clone of GW to play opposite him, it wouldn’t have changed that much. You either get a better QB or get a better OL before you get the receivers. So that brings us to now. We DO have a better QB…IF Rodgers comes back to form at over 40 years old coming off an Achilles tear. We also have a much better OL…IF our tackles can stay healthy for most of the year…with Moses we have little reason to doubt he will, but with Smith, we have the last 5 years to KNOW that he won’t play every game this year. It would be a huge outlier if he did. So that leaves us with having to count on (at least right now) either Warren or Mitchell to play a few games at least. That doesn’t give my much comfort. Neither guy has shown he can play at a high enough level. Doesn’t mean we won’t sign someone else later in free agency. But as of now, to me…it DOES feel like OT is probably the highest priority on this team right now. Followed pretty damn closely by WR, where we have a stud in GW and a great option in Williams IF he’s healthy. So again, we absolutely need to add to the OL and the WR group. I fully hope that our first two picks are those positions. I would prefer the OT at 10, but if one of the stud receivers is there and the top 3 tackles aren’t, I’d be deciding between taking the WR at 10 or trading back if there is a decent offer and taking the OT a bit later in the round. I want no part of a TE at 10. I just don’t. They bust way too often around the league, and even more so when we draft them. For whatever reason, some teams have a great feel for some positions (look at the Steelers, who always seem to find stud receivers in whatever round they choose them), and some have blinders…the last TE we drafted that was worth a damn was probably Dustin Keller…very much in this type of “more of a receiver than an inline TE” like I hear Bowers is. I just don’t love it. I’m not saying he wouldn’t be a weapon. He would. But to me, I’d rather invest high draft capital into positions of what I think are DIRE NEEDS, and I’m perfectly happy to roll into the season with Conklin and Ruckert as TE1 and TE2, and whomever else they want at TE3 (Yeboah, Kuntz, whomever). To me, that’s the smart play. But I do also get that JD and Saleh are in a WIN NOW mode (as well they should be after 4-5 years with little to show for it), and I can see the allure of drafting a shiny weapon and patching OT with another free agent (Bahktiari?) … but to me that would not be the smart move. I think OL is still not really solved for THIS year, let alone for the future.
Good post. QB is the most important player on a team for a reason, i.e., their play can make the difference between a winning and a losing season. The OL protects the QB, not only from getting injured, but also from being constantly harried and pressured, and opens up holes for the RBs to take pressure off of the QB and to keep opposing Ds off balance. JD certainly could forget about the future since he very well might not be here next year, but that would go totally against whom JD has said that he is and what his goal is with the Jets since the day he was hired, and that is to build a sustainable winner. I don't see taking an OT as a "luxury" but can understand how some (including JD) could see it that way. The problem is that even though Tyron Smith is still a great LT, probably one of the top 5 LTs in the game, he cannot stay healthy. It's not likely that he will play more than 12-13 games this season, and it's not a stretch to say that he could wind up playing only 5 or fewer games this season. If Rodgers goes down with a serious injury this season, it's over. If Smith plays 12 games and the Jets are 9-3 when he goes down with injury, without a competent backup at LT, Rodgers could go down in the next game and the Jets lose the remaining 5 games and miss the playoffs. JD would have failed to fix the OL, would have failed to get the Jets into the playoffs, and would have failed in building a sustainable winner. If the team missed the playoffs after starting 9-3 due to poor play by Warren or Mitchell, either because one of them was Smith's backup, or because JD's solution to backup Smith was Bakhtiari, and Bakhtiari was already on IR when Smith went down, JD would get crucified by the media and fanbase, and rightfully so. Not only would he most likely be fired, but because he continually failed to fix the OL, when that was a prime goal of his, and because he foolishly took a WR over an OT (in a very strong draft for OTs) who could back up Smith and play at a high level, most likely he wouldn't get another GM job ever again. Barring Mike Williams not being able to play at the beginning of the season or going down with injury, whatever WR JD drafts will not start. He will be the #3 WR this season, and if JD extended Mike Williams during or following this season, that WR would continue to be the #3 WR, and maybe would only get 20-30 passes thrown his way this season. One doesn't need to use a 1st round pick on WR who is going to be the #3 option at WR and get so few targets. That would be the very definition of a luxury pick. I respect you and your opinion, and WR is a need. I have said as much many times. I wish that the OL and OT in particular weren't still such a big need. They shouldn't be, but are due to a combination of bad choices/moves by JD, turf, poor training regimen, possibly wrong blocking scheme, and bad luck. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is. Because it's a deep draft at WR, the Jets can add a good WR prospect at #72, and if they trade down in the 1st and are able to add a 2nd round pick (which sadly is doubtful with Minnesota's already having traded up), they could get an even better WR prospect in the 2nd round. There's also the matter of 1st round WRs having one of the highest bust rates in the NFL. That's why I think think the safest and wisest move for JD, the Jets, and Rodgers, both for this season and for the future, is to take an OT in the 1st round.
The problem with your analysis there is that you are essentially just broad stroking in all the credit to the QB, and as if that was the only meaningful surrounding improvement that was going in to each of those equations. That a majority of casual following interest fans really only tend to zero their limited and fairly short memory attention spans in on the more flashier positions on the field is a product of how such gets followed and consumed through the presentation media. It's not in any means representative of the suggestive "proof" that coaching or support pieces don't matter. Take CJ Stroud for example. Your theory that wants to conveniently dump all the credit on him is again basically ignoring the fact that there was a lot of things Houston appeared to have got really right going in to that success formula. Not just who they took at QB. Hell Bobby Slowik coming in to have the success he did with Stroud, fresh off being at QB coach helm of the Brock Purdy emergence, looks to have brought over some of that Shanahan touch magic that likely puts him on the Ben Johnson'like fast track to being one of the most sought after young offensive geniuses in the league. If you don't know his name right now trust me...you'll be hearing it plenty in the media next winter post HC firings and here on this board after Saleh gets his axe day. Coaching and support systems matter. Regardless of the fact it's not easier to sum that up then that alternative explanation that is a lot more Tic Toc friendly. That the Jets currently think the way you do above is just another one of the endless tough love lessons this franchise needs to (re)learn again.
I never said coaching and support don't matter, but that is a commodity, like talented players that any team can get, even without a draft. Didn't we NY Jets fans think we had that kind of coach and support when JD and Saleh was hired? What better coach and support system than in NE with Belichick et al, but apparently that wasn't enough to turn Mac Jones into Tom Brady. With all due respect, I don't think you're getting my point. However a QB gets to the point of leading a team, it's his performance that matters most in the success of a team. And yes, OL and coaching helps in that performance.
They all are and we are talking about the Jets. Testaverde's first game out for the season. How many injuries did Joe Namath have as a Jets.. Chad Pennington was also first game out for the year. Then we fast forward to our newest and oldest QB Rodgers. Also a first game casualty.
Very well said. As much as I hate to acknowledges Belichek’s wisdom, he knew his system could rely on Brady’s quick decisions and releases. As such, he could bias his offensive line choices to players with superior run blocking and IQ. He never had to break the bank on OL chasing, or keeping, talent — which allowed him to spend money elsewhere. No team can afford all pro at every position and the smart teams now how to leverage their system to attain value. I think our OL will look much, much better this year with Rodgers being a big reason for that
You are largely correct, but I think you are underestimating how a terrible OL impacts QB performance. We are not talking an average OL. Jets OL was rated bottom by pretty much every metrics, including PFF and DVOA. Only a very special talent and extremely durable QB can overcome that, and even then it's not a given. You still need basic foundation for a QB to be successful. A minimum viable product on OL needs to be there, and last year it wasn't. OL need not be great, but there needs to be some sort of basic baseline, which last year we didn't have. Practically no QB could succeed in this environment. Certainly not an older guy, even if he is good like Rodgers, who will inevitably get hurt, nor someone who is not elite. If the OL baseline is there, then yes, QB performance can drive the rest. We didn't have even the basic necessity in place last year.
I think it's sort of the opposite of this - people generally underestimate how much the QB impacts the OL. A bad QB makes a mediocre OL look awful. A good QB makes a mediocre OL look pretty good.
The key is for the OL to be mediocre though. At the end of 2022 we had White, Flacco, and last year Siemian all look like shit. Flacco and even Siemian are not as bad as they looked and looked significantly better a year before/after our terrible OL. And frankly in very limited time Rodgers was there, he looked like shit too. Let's make the line mediocre to begin with, and you are correct a good QB will make it look better. But it is very hard to make awful OL look average, at least for a non top 5 QB.
You are definitely both right. I was just watching a Badinger breakdown of Reddick against the Jets and while he was unblocked almost and coming straight at Wilson Lazard was in his line of sight wide open with his hand up in the endzone. Zach saw him and instead of eating the hit and throwing the easy TD he folded like a lawn chair and took the sack. OL sucked but a decent QB would have hit that TD 100% of the time.
You are one of my favorite posters and I respect your view and certainly see where it comes from after witnessing the Jets over the last 10 years or so, but I believe almost any pro caliber OL, and that includes the Jets, can win if they have a good QB under center. In addition to the examples I mentioned in a previous post here's another: in 2010 the Colts were 10-6, in 2011 Peyton Manning spent the year injured and they went 2-14 with Curtis Painter at QB. In 2012 they drafted Luck and went 11-5. What happened to the OL line in 2011? They couldn't overcome the poor QB play much as the Jets haven't been able to overcome the poor QB play it's had over the last decade or so. But as others have pointed out, now we have a good QB (or at least we hope.) Therefore, we should expect the OL, and all aspects of the offense to improve whether or not we take an OT in the draft . As for Rodgers, I don't know why an organization would jump through the hoops the Jets did to bring him here if they didn't expect him to perform at close to the level he did when he left GB. Football is a rough game. Playing on the OL is hard enough so why would the Jets further burden them by putting a brittle QB under center. The job of the OL is to protect the QB, yes, but they can't be perfect. He's going to have to take some hits. If he gets hurt and can't play, that's not on the OL in my mind, that's on Woody and the FO for not respecting the aging process.
I’d take Brian Thomas Jr over Bowers any day of the week. Bowers is the most overrated player in the entire draft.
Few passing thoughts, maybe someone can answer? A- is the Connor McGovern and Kwon Alexander dream dead? I can’t imagine either is much $, and in an “all in” year, I’d imagine both would be of interest? B-If we draft a lineman at 10 or in first round, is that the end of bahktiari? Just doing the math now we have 8 guys that I can now..starters plus max Mitchell, Warren and Schweitzer..worh bahktiari and the rookie, well have 10? Seems a bit high. Plus that would be like. 6 guys who only play tackle. c- I like the reddick pickup, I can make a case he’s our best lineman now. However, if he’s taking huffs snaps (minimum)..how is McDonald gonna play?
