If you watched the SB, do you really think that Rodgers would be able to deal with either teams pass rush with even a mediocre OL? And achieving that improvement would be a massive achievement by Douglas, something he hasn't yet ever done. Yes, Rodgers will make a difference IF...IF he stays healthy. But unless Douglas achieves this unheard of improvement in the OL by September, the odds of Rodgers playing the whole season, or even the majority of it, are slim. IOW, this team isn't this bad because of Zach Wilson. There are fundamental problems that run far deeper than that. IDK if you subscribe to the The Athletic, but they have a piece in today's issue that talks about how the Chiefs had to reinvent themselves to win their 3rd SB in five years. Have the Jets ever tried to do that? Have they ever taken a step back and honestly evaluated themselves and made whatever changes that were called for? In over 60 years as a fan the only time I ever witnessed this was under Parcells (and I'm no fan of Parcells BTW). The crux of that evaluation was this: "That self-evaluation on the cusp of the playoffs resulted in Reid condensing the playbook and simplifying the game plan." Let that sink in: with arguably the best QB in recent NFL history, and the best offensive HC in the NFL, the Chiefs condensed the playbook and simplified the game plan. And yet the Jets stuck to their guns and ran an offense that clearly wasn't working, not only for their marginal QBs, but for the rest of the players. And because they have a defensive-minded HC, he was ignorant of how to do anything to change it apparently. But Woody's going to run it back again next year because maybe Rodgers will make all the problems go away. SMH.
I think the biggest thing is just leaving it to football guys and standards those guys are setting. In the Chiefs example, they made changes because a 9-6 record at the time was not making the standards they set for themselves. 9-6 was not good enough for the Chiefs. Woody and the Jets would celebrate with a parade if the record was 9-6. Hell they celebrated the Rodgers acquisition like it was a super bowl title and the record was 0-0 The path forward is not to bitch in the media like Woody Johnson did. It's not to let Joe Douglas or Robert Saleh both report their excuses to Woody Johnson. The path is hire someone with a track record in this league to sit above them and hold everyone accountable
I agree with all of this except that Woody did actually change the structure when he hired Douglas to have the HC report to the GM. It amounted to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
i definitely have a problem with this coaching staff - they made a bad situation way worse. I honestly believe that our QBs exacerbated the problem. We have had the worst (compared to teams in each season but also historically) QB play - that just cripples what a team can do - in every aspect. Our offensive staff did very little to make a garbage situation better. I would love to have a new HC (Vrabel comes to mind) - but that’s not an option. I’m just saying that the Jets aren’t as bad as they’ve looked the last two years (they were that bad the first year post Gase) - they have a boat load of talent - unfortunately there’s a lot of wood to chop in the OL - but even that was made worse by our QB play. I think it’s very doable to make the OL average (that would require a bunch of moves) and I believe AR would have this offense be much better given the weapons (plus adding a WR2) with average OL play. I know I sound like an Aaron Rodgers apologist - but I do believe he would help tremendously where this team is the weakest - O-line, QB play and poor offensive coaching
It's not statistically significant, I don't expect him to be pressured on every single play, but the fact he was pressured ALL his plays is something to think about. Bad luck on every single one of all 4 plays? Maybe. Or maybe when you have the worst line in the League, even Rodgers cannot consistently hide these warts and will eventually get seriously hurt. Rodgers is an older QB too, and he is not as mobile any longer, like Mahomes is. At the very least though there should be serious doubts he can do great with shit line and won't get injured, frankly I find it highly unlikely. I think things can work with Rodgers, but he must be protected 1st and foremost.
How do you explain Siemian and Flacco both looking significantly better for other teams they recently played for? The line looked as bad as it is on paper, some of us have been very vocal about it in the off-season. I understand Rodgers is better than the alternatives, and the reason he played only 4 plays (pressured on each) is because the OLine killed him. I do agree AR with average line would be really good for us, but I don't think our QBs is what made OL look bad, it's the OL that made OL look bad.
Yes, we've had poor QB play, but my point is that that isn't the main problem. It isn't QBs that are making the team bad, it's the owner, GMs and CS that are making the QB's - and the rest of the team - bad. And no, I'm not interested in rehashing the "Is Zach Wilson actually a good QB who was mishandeled by the Jets" argument. But it's no coincidence that if you go back through the past two decades, the Jets have drafted several promising QBs who failed. Was that because they were failures to begin with? From your posts I gather you think so. But it could also be that the Jets lack of understanding, ability, and commitment to developing a young QB - spanning multiple HCs and CS - is the bigger issue. And that issue is simply the tip of the iceberg: this team has ignored offense for decades, so it's no wonder they haven't had a good young QB in forever. Now, since Woody has decided to allow the same incompetents keep their jobs, we will continue to have a QB drought for the foreseeable future. And because they've placed all their chips in Arron Rodgers' hand, we also won't have a decent backup for the inevitable moment when he gets hurt again, which will in turn re-expose all the flaws in this team and CS.
Yup, Jets are just unlucky. They've been prepared to develop every one of them, they just haven't been good quarterbacks.
The OL, particularly after the injuries, was objectively really bad - I don't disagree. There was a game or two, I don't fully recall, when AVT was playing right tackle, Tippman right guard, mcgovern center, LT left guard and bechton left tackle were the line was sort of slightly below average (which is unfortunately the peak of performance) and the QB wasn't running for their life. Next year - the line should be better than that (of course assuming injury factors) - Top 10 pick - one of the tackles, tippman center, LT at left guard (or someone better and he's cut); AVT right guard and free agent LT/RT. I think Rodgers with this line will be fine. With respect to Siemian and Flacco looking better than Zach Wilson? That's a low bar. I don't think I'm speaking out of turn that Zach Wilson may go down as one of the worst QBs to ever play the position. Bizarre circumstances, lack of alternatives and injuries allowed for someone as bad as Zach Wilson to continue to play THREE YEARS for the Jets. Anyone would like better - but that's not saying that they are good or even average. Siemian and Flacco's play was below average (Flacco had some moments for like 5 games) - but that's not saying much. Any way you shake it - the NY Jet QB situation the last three years was as bad as any team has experinced and that cascades throughout the team - particularly the offense. All I'm saying is that you go from that situation to - even a semi-washed all time great - it's going to immensely improve the situation. I'm not saying buy your Superbowl tickets or anything like that - but you should expect a major improvement and I don't think that's a hot take by any stretch.
I agree that the coaching staff is one of problems - so I'm definitely conflicted to have any hope for next year. I will say that the staff is pretty good on the D side of things and I'm hopeful that QB play the last few years hid what may be average coaching on the O (I have my doubts.) We're stuck with the staff unfortunately With respect to the Jets' QB history - I'd argue that coaching up the players hasn't been the cause of our futility. We've had a lot of stiffs come through here since, say Kenny O's days (my favorite players as a kid - a statue back there - but he was accurate and was good with protection [obviously would have preferred Marino). No one the Jets drafted had significant success elsewhere. Pennington would have been good if not for the arm injury that weakened an already weak arm. Geno is pretty much still trash - had a decent year last year - but if you watched him the old Geno is still there. After that - there's noone. Sanchez? Browning Nagle? Darnold? The Jets really drafted and tried to develop like 5 guys since the 80s - it's been vets otherwise. None of those 5 guys amounted to anything - they were just bad draft picks unfortunately. Is Aaron Rodgers peak any longer? Of course not - but he's probably the best option we can hope for given where we're drafting this year and the other options that are out there. I'd say that he's the best of the vets we've ever brought in to play for the Jets - Esiason, O'Donnell, Testaverde, Favre or Fitzpatrick - none of these guys are close to Rodgers (except maybe Favre - but he didn't want to be here.) It's sad to say - but next years QB situation will be the best we've had since Pennington pre-injury and it's not particularly close. We have two great skills guys (Breece and Garrett) and a top 10 defense. They just need to get a few pieces fixed and we could actually have a decent team that may be favored in a playoff game if everything goes right.
It's clear we're on complete opposite sides of this. You forgive the coaching and blame the QBs, while I forgive the QBs (for the most the part) and blame the coaching. The truth probably is somewhere in the middle. That said, I'm going to argue that inadequate coaching has had a much bigger impact than the quality of the QBs we drafted. That's not to say that those QBs were great, or would've certainly become FQBs with the right coaching - almost certainly they wouldn't have - but it's almost impossible to quantify the negative impact that poor coaching has on a young player, because once that damage is done, that player will likely never come close to what their original potential might've been. And that's why I say that the poor coaching has been the bigger problem, but at the same time more easily overlooked. It's easy to say "Sanchez, Geno, Sam, Zach sucked" and use readily available stats to support that statement. But how do you quantify or measure the damage done by poor coaching? There are no stats for that. But that doesn't mean it isn't a major problem, and even the major part of the problem. The fact that we've had four highly drafted QBs fail (Sanchez had a brief glimmer but it was an outlier even for him) in the past 15 years points to a systemic failure. And when you consider that we've also had defensive minded HCs during that entire time, who had no feel or understanding for offense, should then make it clear what the real problem is. Sure, maybe none of these 4 would've become great or even very good QBs, but to have all them fail like they did argues against coincidence. Or look at it from the other perspective - QBs who initially struggled but then succeeded. Josh Allen for example sucked as badly as Zach Wilson did for two years with better talent around him, but the Bills CS worked with him, and adjusted their system to fit him, and Voila! He became an All Pro in his 3rd year. Or Trevor Lawrence who sucked as badly as Zach his first year, and then they fired the HC and brought in a proven offensive minded one and Voila! he was transformed. The impact - positive or negative - of coaching on individual players is far undervalued, and yet it's at least as important as the talent the player has, maybe even more so. Would Russell Wilson have been as successful as he was under any other coach than Pete Carroll? Or would Brady have gotten a chance to become what he became under any other coach than Belichick? At this point Zach Wilson is a certified failure for the Jets. He'll be gone, but as of now the same CS that failed to develop him is still here. That's why I argue against the Jets drafting another QB until - IF - that changes. They have to count on Rodgers saving them, but the odds are against Rodgers playing a full season. So they're going to need a good backup, but it had better be one who has already learned how to be an NFL QB and not have to depend on these "QB Killers" to groom him. The problem is that any credible QB they might try to get as a backup would be crazy to come here because in addition to not knowing how to develop QBs, this CS doesn't know how to develop a successful offense, and so far the GM can't put together a decent OL. As I said, Wilson is gone, but these other problems still remain.
We agree more than you think - I also think that the Jets have had a really really bad run with coaches. Even Rex - who had a lot of success (in the context of the Jets) - basically ignored the offense and he didn't have a great o-coordinator to help him. I agree our coaching hasn't done any QB any favors - but I am still convinced that Bill Walsh couldn't have done anything with the guys we've had - they were just not good. They were talented physically - but their problems were mental and they didn't understand the game to the level they needed to. Sanchez had green and red cards, Geno would back pedal during a rush and throw the ball up for grabs and Zach, well, he couldn't do anything really (only this year they got him to a level where he was a decent back-up QB.) Until we get a good coaching staff (if we ever will) - our best bet at QB is a vet.
I don't know how to say this any clearer. This team is NOT going to crack more than 4 wins next year. I keep hearing, "well we squeaked out 7 wins under Wilson so it's going to be better when Rodgers takes the helm." Bullshit. Let's take a peek at some quick FACTS instead of fantasizing about what could or should be, shall we? I won't make this a long thread because the discussion has been bantered around ad nauseum and, until this unit is literally completely replaced, we aren't winning shit. Fact - The NY Jets have fielded one of the worst offensive lines over the course of the last 5 to 10 years. I love all the talk about injuries but Rodgers was obliterated 4 snaps in. Injuries hadn't yet begun to be the issue. One of Douglas' MAIN talking points, when hired, was the known issue of the O-Line and he has FAILED outright and completely. Failed to find a solid starting unit and failed to ensure there is enough depth to overcome what is consistently a turnstile league wide. he will fail again because his track record PROVES that he is going to fail. They couldn't even swap out the o-line coaching as "something to try" to get different results. Just running back the same ole' same ole'. Until our offensive line looks more like Detroit's this team isn't doing shit. Another Fact concerning the o-line, if these fuckers actually sign Bakhtiari I'm going to personally mutiny, not that it would matter. Fact - this team has NO backup quarterback while we start one of the oldest in the league coming off a major injury. With the o-line being a known swiss cheese commodity, it is a 100% GUARANTEE that Rodgers WILL get injured at some point in 2024. It is simply stupid to think otherwise. 66 different QB's started in 2023 and the Jets had FOUR of them. Which means, this team will only go as far as the backup will take us. Trevor is taking us nowhere. In fact, if I took a poll...an HONEST poll of who backs up Rodgers in 2024 I would be willing to GUARANTEE you everyone agrees that it will either be Trevor or someone WORSE than Trevor. This team is NOT an attractive landing spot and we certainly do not have the cap space to throw $$ at someone, which is what will be required if this team thinks it's going to get anyone worth two shits to come to this Clown Show. Let those two items sink in. In summation, unlike the 80's, Defense does NOT win championships. Not in 2024 they don't. OFFENSE wins Championships. The Jets haven't fielded a presentable and complete offense since Vinny Testaverde prowled the sidelines. Every other year has been a menagerie of shit. Mediocre is the average Jets offense with PUTRID being the more accurate description the last decade. The ENTIRE organization needs flushed down the shitter and rebuilt by an offensive guru. You do NOT find an offensive guru by giving shit show coordinators a "chance." That works for teams who have an established track record of winning and this is NOT nor has ever BEEN this team. EVER. The ONLY coach, the past 5 to 10 years, I would have given a shot in hell at turning this organization around just signed with Chargers. The more I think about it, the more Vrabel would just be another repeat of the pain we've been living. A defensive coach is simply not going to come in here and do what needs to be done to yank our shit hole of a wasted fucking bag of flesh offense out of the goddamn stone age! You could put Mahome's legs, on Rodgers body with Brady's brain and they would go exactly NOWHERE on this fucking team! I'm tired of banging the drum! PHILOSPHICALLY the team has to change. Period. I would give up a top 3 defense (where the Jets landed in 2023) for a top 3 offense. Hell, you could drop this defense allllllllllllll the way down to 10 or 15 if we had a top 3 offense. The results would be VASTLY different. Since that is NOT going to happen, we fans sit here on TGG and get the frustration out on the board. It's what I do.
You just shit on your own argument. By saying Bill Walsh couldn't get it done completely countered your FINAL statement! What the hell? The other statement I bolded is exactly what fucking coaches are FOR!!!!! To teach! My ass. Bill Walsh would yank these fuckers out of the stone age or they wouldn't be ON the team! That's 9/10th of the battle! IF you don't have the "horses" to do the work you go GET the "horses!!!!" But you have to have the coaches, see Bill Walsh, to TEACH them!!! You know, I really really wonder just how good of a team the Jets COULD be if they actually had a competent coaching staff, at all levels, to teach them and hold them ACCOUNTABLE!! Which, of course, is Saleh's most GLARING failure. This fucking guy "fanboys" his players. There isn't a shred of accountability among the lot of them on the whole damn team.
What I was trying to say was that the guys didn't have the mental capabilities to be successful - you can't coach someone into something if nothing is there. QB is a really hard position and it takes a special player to be successful at it - once you have the sufficient physical skills to play the position - success is primarily driven by football intelligence - which can be helped with good/great coaching - but you need a foundation to build upon. The guys we've had - haven't had that unfortunately. They had the physical skills - just not the football intelligence
One correction here, I never said Siemian and Flacco are better than Zach today (not 2022 or 2021, where Zach was basically unplayable, but today). In fact, Zach showed he was significantly better than Siemian last season 2023 because he had very significant 15 point higher QB rating while playing on the same team. The point regarding Flacco/Siemian was not that they are better than Zach (I think today they are not) but that they played much worse with our shit of a Line as opposed to for other teams where they looked serviceable when receiving some protection. Rodgers also looked bad, but with small sample size, then got hurt. I think it is quite clear, at least to me, if you do not get protection for Rodgers, he will not fix OL issues and make it look better consistently. More likely than not he will struggle under pressure just like everyone else and will get hurt and we will be fucked, even if we get a better back-up than Zach (who btw I don't think is a terrible back-up now, and some options like Tanny are worse). The only path to success even with Rodgers is to build at least an average OL. If we can do that, I agree, Rodgers could potentially make a huge difference of up to 5 extra Ws.
Rodgers wasn't crushed by a rush and got hurt - he just pivoted and tore an achilles - just a really really tough break. Hell, Greenlaw tore his achillis running on the field from the sideline. I agree that the O-line needs a lot of work - but it's not that difficult to be average to below average (we don't need to have the Det Lion or Brown's o-line). Need to focus on getting two tackles in free agency - one starter and a swing tackle (the starter need not be elite); draft a tackle and perhaps another interior o-linemen in free agency or the draft for some add'l depth (we already have Schweitzer coming back - he's fine as interior line back-up [I'm a bit more iffy on Warren and Mitchell as depth at tackle to be honest). That'll give the Jets a middling o-line: free agent tackle (RT/LT); AVT - guard, tippman - center; Thomlinson - guard; top 10 drafted rookie (RT/LT). I agree that this line won't be the greatest - but it will allow the offense to function. For back-up QB - we can get a decent one. We'd really only look for someone who can win a few games if Rodgers went down for a bit. A situation like last year where he's lost for the season cannot be planned for - if your starter goes down - your season is basically over. There have been exceptions (Kurt Warner, Foles, Brady and Hostetler) - but that's exceedingly rare. I agree that I'd prefer a great offense than a great defense - but I'd just take a slightly above average offense - which I think we have a chance to have if everything goes right (which I admit - is a bit of a long shot - but that's where we are)
How do you know this? Were you part of the team or privy to inside info? It could just as easily be said that the lack of intelligence was on the CS - which I'm more inclined to believe frankly. But unless you have some proof that Zach (and the others) lacked intelligence it's unfair to make that indictment.
I agree. Further, Since the Jets couldn't go and talk to Zach in person or bring him in they spoke on the phone with him on 3 separate occasions (as much as the NFL would allow) grilling him and testing his football IQ and he got very high marks. I don't believe it's a lack of football IQ on his part. I think it's the way he's been jerked around and the passive/conservative/predictable offense, the wrong scheme, the lousy OL, and the lack of good coaching. If Zach had been drafted by SF, or KC, and maybe a few other teams, I think he would look like a very different QB right now.
