I still don't understand how you can be so confident regarding this: "Sir, we should explore every option before....." Why do you think JD and Saleh didn't want a good QB just as bad? There has to be some sort of evidence to suggest this, which there just isn't any. Did you watch HBO to see how in awe they were of Rodgers? And no, I don't think Saleh is an academy award winning actor. Every single time I hear them talk, they say they need to upgrade QB. It was also obvious to us. What other option to explore was JD allegedly suggesting? Jimmy G? Minshew? Good QBs are not just available every year. The only two good QBs that were available that year were Carr and Rodgers. I can definitely see an argument for going after Carr, but it is far from certain we would have had him. He is a West coast guy, likes to play in dome, and NO wanted him too, and so did other teams. Not saying we wouldn't get him, but certainly it was not a lock. The Jets needed a QB, according to everyone, and they got one of two best ones available. I mean sure, we can imagine a conversation without any evidence where JD wanted to get someone else, but it's just that: an imaginary conversation. Where JD fucked up is not getting good Oline again, someone better than Boyle/Siemian as back-ups, not getting a good #2 WRs, giving up too much in AR trade, standing still at the trade deadline, missing on all offensive FA signings. If JD did that - heck if he just managed to get a decent OLine, we are probably in a play-off picture now even with Zach. But he didn't. Where Woody fucked up is keeping JD for another year after all these failures. He is an absolute dumb ass for thinking to do the same thing next year and get a different result. But I think JD fucked up this season all on his own.
And you have evidence that they went in and told him they wanted Rodgers? Stop. You're doing the exact same thing I am: speculating based on what you interpret and believe. You believe Douglas feared for his job and took advantage of a poor, helpless, little old man. (I'm paraphrasing to be sarcastic, no need to defend this point,I stipulate that it isn't exactly what you think). I believe the little old man isn't as helpless as you think he is and forced them to take their idea and do it his way. Are least I have previous evidence to back up my claim as Woody has done such things before. You have no such track record with the guys you think are the evil ones. In fact, their entire MO was the exact opposite before this past offseason. I know they all wanted a good QB, but the entire episode was extremely poorly conducted. You think it's a GM idea to have the entire management team jump on a plane to go try and convince a guy to join their team? This isn't college, they aren't recruiting blue chip athletes. Have you ever considered that all of the crushing of Joe Douglas that you do for being allowed to be raked over the coals could be because he was being told to get it done no matter what? There was no evidence that he would do such a thing before, in fact, people actually complimented him on not overpaying, on not getting ripped off. You can argue that the moves he made didn't work out and that his talent evaluation is shit , but he did not have a reputation as a sucker. So if you would rather believe that all of that was thrown out the window in one offseason "just because", then you can continue to do so. Until such time that either one of us can produce "evidence", we'll just have to be content to agree that they all suck at what they do and we're the ones suffering.
The evidence is that it is his job description to manage the football team, and the outcome sucks for 4 years, so the conclusion is that he did his job poorly. Woody also fucked up for keeping someone that did the job poorly. What is your evidence that he was told to do his job poorly by Woody?
Nothing you just said is evidence, you simply gave your opinion. I don't have evidence, I said that already. I only have logic based on previous behavior by both parties. I am clearly interpreting what i see differently than you and that's fine.
I accept your opinion, no issues there. But there is a difference between me judging someone based on his stated job description and then poor results doing this job and you assuming he wasn't allowed to do his job because of someone else without any evidence to show for it.
Again, I can only go by previous behavior. Woody has done it before, JD has not shown any evidence of going in such a direction before this past off-season. At this point, we diverge on opinions, and let's just leave it there. We are going over the same ground over and over.
Sure, I respect your position. Just one last thing to ponder on: JD was a GM for a grand total of 3 years before this year and only brought one FQB option which failed (Zach), so there isn't enough evidence to suggest one way or the other on whether he would like Rodgers or not based on his history. Every time I hear him or Saleh speak about this though, he is either an amazing actor or genuinely like Rodgers. We do agree that Woody wanted Rodgers too. Heck, I wanted Rodgers also, and a lot of fans did as well. We also agree is that Woody now looks to be senile old man. Where I am just a bit puzzled is why you feel JD wanted to pursue other options, and Woody didn't allow it, and that JD overpaid and made other mistakes because of Woody and not due to his own incompetence. That was a genuine question, as I am open to change my view based on new info. But what I am hearing is that is more of your gut feel rather than something tangible, and that's fine also. We can agree to disagree.
Saleh clearly wanted Rodgers, the guy is like a total fan boi whenever he talks about Rodgers Douglas doesnt talk much but I imagine whether he wanted Rodgers or not he wanted to keep his job more. And bringing in Rodgers did just that for him. Last place every year but he gets to keep his job cause Rodgers got hurt. He made a wise decision and bought his family another solid year of GM salary
I like simplicity. Not everything has to be some convoluted conspiracy based on a hunch. I wanted Rodgers too, because he and Carr were a type of QB that normally is not available in the off-season. I signed up for either one of these two. Rodgers, even though declined, had a better season than Carr, even though Carr had his #1 WR and Rodgers had Lazard as his #1 (!!!). So, there is a very simple and strong argument here that can be made, which is that we needed a QB after Zach busted. So, I think pretty much everyone with the Jets wanted Rodgers. And listening to JD, how he is saying time and time again about excitement, about how it was surreal to come to his house and talk to him about joining the Jets, "is this really happening, am I really sitting here talking to Rodgers about playing for the team I work with", he sure sounds just as much a fanboy as Saleh. And it is not just them, GW, Breece, and Sauce also tried to recruit him. Or Woody mandated them too? Which is why I can't quite understand the narrative that JD somehow didn't want this and Woody forced him to do it and also overpay for it with 3 days still to go. I mean this is a major major leap right here. And if you want to believe that, it's fine, we are all entitled to our opinions, but I personally want to base mine on something a bit more solid than a hunch to completely overturn a baseline common sense belief that JD was doing his job, particularly after how glowingly both he and Saleh spoke about Rodgers.
Fair enough - I appreciate that you are open to discussion. Ok, so I never said JD didn't want Rodgers at all. I said that the Rodgers course of action was forced on him. That sounds like the same thing but isn't. I have no doubt that Rodgers was on JD's radar - how could he not be? But for him to do everything he did in the offseason - make it completely obvious that Rodgers was the one and only target, give away every bit of leverage he had, and not even explore a single other option (except for a fake lip service dinner with Derek Carr after the organization had already made it pretty clear that it was Rodgers or bust) - none of that makes any sense for anyone in a position that requires advanced negotiation skills like that of an NFL GM. The most amateur high school kid wouldn't do that, much less a guy who's come through the ranks, and more importantly, never displayed such poor skills prior to that. Let's not even mention the fact that so many were convinced that they were just "a QB away" and if that was the case, there was absolutely no need to go all out and sacrifice the franchise's future for Rodgers - there were plenty of low to mid level guys that could have given us "better than Zach Wilson" did last year. And if you WERE going to sacrifice the franchise for Rodgers, there was a much smoother way to go about it - which brings us in a loop back to my original point about negotiation. Couple all of that with the fact that Woody Johnson has forced big name QBs on his poorly performing teams twice before - and this seems obvious to me. I could talk for an hour about things I've already pointed out, but wanted to address this particular point since it seems we weren't on the same page about it. JD was forced to take the action he did, but that doesn't mean he wasn't interested in Rodgers.
I agree the organization preferred Rodgers, all of that makes sense - he was the best QB available. They did dine Carr, I am not sure what was there more to explore aside from making an offer, which they decided not to do because they Rodgers was the preference. Everything you said can simply be explained by the Jets and JD preferring Rodgers to Carr. All other options were far inferior. That part is very simple. As far as negotiation, GB GM drove a hard bargain as he should have, but he would have to fold come draft day, we agree on that as well. I really don't know why JD folded with 3 days still to go. The explanation that Woody told him to fold also doesn't make any sense to me. It's a bit out of the blue - that with 3 days to go Woody said, get it done. If he forced him, why not right away months ago. Or on the draft night even? Or even after, like with Favre. It's just such a random date and act to demand JD to fold, a big leap, where there should be something solid to believe it. Maybe the pick swap didn't matter for JD much, since he had players like McD, Mayer and others rated similarly or it could be that he get burnt out by long process of trade negotiation. It happens as well. Either way, I don't know for sure whey he pulled the trigger earlier than he had to, but that was his job, and I cannot just excuse him not doing it well. Btw, he also screwed up before on Robinson trade by JAX GM, so it is not the first time he's been had, just on a larger scale this time. So, all and all, I can see your point of view, but to me, particularly in light of videos I shared and HBO series where Saleh and JD are in awe of Rodgers, even with our best players fascinated with Rodgers and sacrificing cheese head for him, I just don't have enough solid footing or any really not to accept the simplest explanation: JD wanted Rodgers as badly as others, but didn't do a good job in trade negotiations (not the first time either).
I'm with you - the only real explanation I can come up with for folding is that they had already given all their leverage away earlier in the process. I mean, Hackett, Lazard - all the talk about how Rodgers was their only guy. Green Bay had nothing to lose except the 2023 draft pick to wait until later in the offseason. The Jets absolutely blinked.
Yeah, I think we could have just signed a Minshew and just started the work. With 60 mil check looming in Sept, GB would have given us Rodgers for nothing in the summer. But it wouldn't come down to that. Before that second round pick is called, Gutekunst would be calling JD to get it. It is too valuable of an asset to lose. Jets blinked for sure, to say the least.
Yeah in retrospect it looks like we fucked up. There also wasn’t a single other team rumor to be linked to wanting him. At least when we traded for Favre there were a couple suitors out there.
His contract was enormous, very few owners would be able to eat 60 mil on Sept 1, and then another 50 guaranteed. Plus Rodgers already said he would only play for us and GB president said Love is their guy. This was a no brainer and quite a few of us, even these who wanted Rodgers, were saying so at the time, not just in retrospect. Particularly the pick swap, which I think @Jets79 was appalled with along with others. Take a look at this: "Most notably, the teams swapped first-round picks in the NFL Draft, which begins on Thursday, moving the Jets from No. 13 to No. 15. "In terms of the mechanics of adding that to the deal, that's probably one of the last things that was agreed to in the deal," Douglas said." Then this. "Then Gutekunst didn't hear from Douglas for two weeks...Gutekunst, the source said, finally broke the silence with a phone call to Douglas on April 21, the Friday before the start of the draft. A deal was done by Monday... They agreed to tie the 2024 pick only to Rodgers' participation in 2023. It would be a second-round pick unless Rodgers takes at least 65% of the snaps. Then it would become a first-round pick. Both sides agreed. When the agreement was finalized, Douglas walked into a draft meeting and announced, "We've got our quarterback." He and Saleh fist-bumped and embraced. Saleh never doubted the outcome but said to reporters, "I'm glad it's over. Now we can move on."" I wasn't there of course, but putting this together it looks like they didn't talk for two weeks, and Gute blinked first. Gute broke silence and called JD with a week before the draft... And still somehow fucked him by getting pick swap and reducing protection at the very end. I mean it sure looks like he was ready to take the deal on the table, which was already extremely good for GB, but figured why not ask for the stars just in case, and somehow made it that much better, finishing the rape of JD. Very frustrating, but he is staying, so the only hope left is that he learned.
There were people saying this at the time but they were drowned out in the trade afterglow celebratory cigar smoke
A Jets fan tradition unlike any other. "Hey guys, maybe we shouldn't trade away two 3rd round picks to move up for a guard given all of our holes." "You're an idiot!" "Hey guys, maybe we shouldn't trade for an aging RB, it almost never works out." "You're an idiot!" "Hey guys, maybe we should've drafted the high floor high upside OT instead of the low floor high upside one." "He ran a fast 40 time, you're an idiot!" "Hey guys, maybe we shouldn't hire a defensive HC just because Gase was a bad offensive one." "He's enthusiastic on the sidelines, you're an idiot!" "Hey guys..."
At this point the track record is abundantly clear. The proper attitude towards everything this regime does should be outright pessimism.
2 weeks of Woody Johnson drumming his baby fingers impatiently across a conference room table from Douglas.
