he would have to look like AR in those limited games to get that option picked up and maybe we can get something for him
I've always been real REAL skeptical of the "its all MLF's fault and he ruined Zach" line of thinking. Maybe they didn't perfectly mesh but its not Lafleur's fault that he clanked all those easy throws 9 feet away into the ground. I'm not sure there is no hope though either. If there was ever a type of player that could be "reset" Like we did in the 80's when you needed to turn it off and then turn it back on. Zach Wilson would seem like a candidate for that. Half the battle would be just cleaning up some of those easy throws and I think if he were a little more confident with what he was seeing/reading on the field that would almost happen naturally. I think maybe sitting a year or even two might actually help here if he approaches it with the right frame of mind. I get its not easy to be demoted but life isn't always easy.
I usually agree with, or at least can understand, most of your posts, but I have to call this assertion into question. How many throws "9 feet away" did he throw into the ground? And I'll give you some latitude on the distance - let's just say "short passes". TBH, I don't know if anyone has documented them (although with all the statmasters in the world you'd think someone has, but I couldn't find anything). But from my own recollection it's not like every short pass he attempts goes into the ground, nor even most of them. But they are certainly glaring when they occur. I just think this meme of "Zach can't make a short pass" is ridiculous and I'd like to see some evidence to back that up. On a broader level his accuracy has certainly fallen from the #2 ranked passer in college (behind Mac Jones), and that has to be addressed. Part of it is his mechanics, part of it is his self confidence, but both of these things are aspects that good coaching can, and should, be able to fix. Hopefully, the Jetss now have the CS to do that.
I wasn't going to repond in this thread, but your post changed that with it's over the top negativity. I'm surprised. In the past you have been more positive and open-minded. It isn't your fault, but IMO it is absurd to even be discussing Zach's 5th year option at this point. There's no way the Jets could pick up his 5th year option now, so there's really nothing to discuss. I guess the games where Zach led a comeback and we won didn't happen, since you claim that we won in spite of him and they carried him. You say, "We'll see" but it truly seems that your mind is already made up, otherwise the over the top negativity is out of place. Your comments show that you have little or no understanding of the role comfort in how he's being used and confidence plays in a professional player's performance. The system that Zach played in at BYU was the total opposite of what he is being asked to do now. Instead of extending plays, and being creative, he has the pressure of having to read the D and get the ball out quickly. It's clear that he isn't comfortable or confident in that yet, and may never be. That's not his fault unless he just isn't trying, and nothing about Zach suggests that. That is totally the fault of Saleh, MLF, and JD for planning to use an offense that is totally different from the one he had success in at BYU. It's just sheer stupidity on their part. They should also have seen that he wasn't comfortable or confident in playing this way in practice two years ago, and he should never have been playing in this scheme until he was comfortable and making quick reads. If the Jets wanted Zach to succeed, then they should have either adopted a scheme that fit his strengths and was similar to the one he played in at BYU, or they should have brought in a veteran QB and let Zach sit and learn for 2 years before he saw the field. Asking a rookie to totally change his mechanics, totally change his mindset and the way he plays the QB position while starting is beyond moronic. It gave him zero chance to succeed. Can't see the field? BS He saw it plenty well at BYU, and he has seen it well at times with the Jets. He's having to think too much, which slows down his play and decision making. Anyone who has watched the NFL any time at all understands that when a player is thinking too much on the field, he's going to struggle, not play well, and probably lose confidence as a result. In addition to the pressure the opposing D is throwing at him, he has the pressure he puts on himself to play well and be a leader, the pressure of trying to play in a different way that is foreign to him, the pressure of having to beat a ticking clock, and that on top of having an inconsistent/crap OL, the WR he was most comfortable with was out injured, Hall went down with injury, and it's totally understandable how/why he would be struggling and have lost confidence, particularly with a moron for an OC who was negative and critical, and did nothing to help Zach. This, when coupled with losing his confidence in himself and perhaps this offensive scheme, has caused his problems with accuracy and not seeing the field.
He's not great at passes behind the LOS though. Although, it does appear he improved on that from 2021 to 2022, from a passer rating standpoint anyway. Best thing I could find was the QB Grids on Next Gen Stats: here's his 2021 and 2022 charts. Again, this just looks at passer rating compared against the league average so this is definitely not the end all, be all.
As of now, I would say there's no way we could pick up Zach's 5th year option. He simply just hasn't shown enough to justify having him on the roster at >20M in 2025. The absolute best case scenario for everyone involved is Zach plays well enough in the preseason games and when/if he's thrust into the lineup in the regular season that the Jets feel confident he's heading in the right direction and sign him to a back-up level contract (5-10M AAV) at some point prior to the 2025 season. They also either draft another QB along the way or sign another QB and let Zach and the other QB battle it out for the QB spot in TC. That is however the best case scenario, it's much more likely that Zach Wilson has already played his last meaningful snap at QB for the NY Jets.
With almost no exceptions, every game Zach has played in the NFL there have been at least a couple a game. "missed layups" or whatever we want to call them. I've never seen any other QB do it as consistently and it has really hurt him thus far in his NFL career. I would assume at this point that problem was self evident from watching him. Its also a large reason his completion % has been so relatively poor. If you tacked on another 2 or 3 completions to every game stat line he's had he wouldn't be that far off the pace of what is expected of a modern NFL QB. Do you feel he's.... lets say league average at completing short and easy (easy by NFL QB standards) passes? I'm a little surprised to hear you don't recall this being a problem. On the bright side as we've kept speculating on this board, for someone with his talent level you would think that would eventually be fixable. Although it hasn't been to this point.
Small amount of examples for your perusal after a few minutes of video research. Patriots game 14:16 2nd and 5 dump pass to RB missed badly behind him :48 2nd Q 3rd and 2 Ty Johnson loops out in front of Wilson. Wilson throws the ball at him with a kind of roundhouse motion and misses high by a mile, ball goes over a jumping Ty and is picked off. 9:10 4th Quarter. 1st and 10. Attempts to toss to Ty Johnson who is standing basically right on the LOS. Ball comes up 4ft short. Buffalo Game 2nd Quarter 4:26 1st and 10 Dump pass attempt to Berrios ball comes up horribly short and clanks at his feet. 2nd NE Game 1st Quarter 8:11 3rd and 7. Wilson attempts to throw to Elijah Moore who is basically standing still. Ball lands like 7 yards short. These are the kinds of things I'm talking about. Not the worst interceptions or anything but these are just the kind of throws that basically every QB on every NFL roster should be able to make "almost" every time.
Oh my god... heres the total classic. Most of you guys will probably remember this one because on the game thread nobody could believe it. 10th game vs. New England. A 1st and 10 and the video has no time stamp so perhaps the first play of the 3rd Quarter? Zach takes the snap. Nobody is, or ever gets near him. Berrios is in the flat. Nobody is near him. Zach looks downfield and then just goes to dump it to Berrios. Maybe I'm being unfair calling it 9 feet. It was probably more like 14 or 15. He throws the ball and Berrios and for lack of a better term just simply misses. Ball sails over his head. No opposing player is near Zach or near Berrios. Neither Zach nor Berrios were moving. He just missed the layup.
@Pepsiguy - I appreciate your effort at trying to your (and others) claim that Zach can't hit short passes - as in he completes none or almost none of them - but the reality is that he does complete most of them, with the exceptions being real stinkers that are glaring. But the problem isn't that he can't, because in college, and at times in the pros he has. The problem is that he's inconsistent, which points to a guy who has screwed up mechanics and a lack of faith in his ability to make plays. Both of these are directly due to Zach being forced to change how he plays - as NC pointed out above, and which I've made that same point many times myself - which is the fault of Saleh and MLF directly, and if Saleh had not been able to construct a top 10 defense, he might well have been "asked to leave" like LaFleur was. Douglas (and Woody) had to have been furious that they took Zach with the #2 pick, apparently declining big offers for the pick, only to see Saleh and LaFleur screw him up. And again, as I have repeated every time I defend Zach, I do not "totally absolve" him of responsibility. But from what I - and anyone else outside the Jets organization - knows, he hasn't ignored his failings and has worked to improve on them. But when he's forced to try and be something he's not, that's not going to happen easily or overnight, and it's going to made worse by throwing him into games while he's trying to do all that. It's like trying to fix a 747 in midflight. At this point it's possible that he's ruined, although I hope he isn't. If he isn't though, I believe that sitting and learning behind Rodgers, and getting proper coaching from Hackett will enable him to not only become a decent backup, but a bona fide starter...maybe not a HOF QB, but one capable of winning a SB. For all the assertions made by the "experts" on TGG and elsewhere, I've seen nothing that takes into account these very definite handicaps he had to work with and giving all their statistical "proof" valid context. If I'm wrong, then I wonder why Douglas & Co are holding onto Zach, making him QB#2, and openly stating that they believe he can eventually become QB#1 for them.
Agreed, he's been inconsistent on those, but do you understand what happens when an athlete (or anyone for that matter) begins to question themselves? They can go to very competent to incompetent in heartbeat. Once you lose confidence, you've lost it. Sometimes, with good coaching and patience, you can get it back, but did either of those two conditions exist for Zach after about 6 games into his career? Hopefully, under Hackett, and with Rodgers as a mentor, he'll be able to regain his confidence and continue to grow into the QB the Jets thought they drafted.
Let it go with Zach. He's not NFL material. He played shit competition compared to the Mac Jones and he was #2 behind him. Mac Jones played the best of the best in college. Zach was an overhyped, overdrafted talent in the same sphere of Hackenberg. He never put together a complete NFL game in two seasons (20 games+), and it's not even close. Let's stop talking about him. He has a long way to go, and I doubt he gets there before his contract is up.
(201) Why Zach Wilson Struggles - YouTube Not sure if that video like posts or not but I was just watching this and its must see material CC. First 4 minutes is actually praise of Wilson but the second section of "why he struggles" and I quote "The second problem and something we know was driving Jets fans insane last season was his inability to hit the flat with accuracy. This is a routine throw for all NFL quarterbacks and necessary to continue accumulating yards against dropping defenses and required to open up the screen game. The amount of these he sailed or shanked was FRANKLY RIDICULOUS for an NFL quarterback struggling both from pressure and from a clean set position." Then goes on to show and break down multiple brutal examples. Because there were multiple brutal examples. Almost to the word my thoughts that I've posted here multiple times. And to bring this full circle I defy anyone to tell me that those particular failures were LaFleur's fault. Those are throws any NFL quarterback in any system at any time, in any era, and with any coach should be able to make with near 100% success. Much like a modest ground ball hit directly at a second baseman should result in an out just about 100% of the time, an NBA player with a clean opportunity for a layup should be a score etc.
Thanks for the link. Most of these issues have been discussed and dissected, and I've agreed that he has to improve significantly, but here's where I still disagree with this and other takes that conclude Wilson is a bust (meaning no hope of becoming what he could be). First, if you listen to the first part of that analysis you should hear the positives that are mentioned are rare qualities for most young QBs: the arm strength, the quick arm; the accuracy; the athleticism. All of these were on display many times during the past two years, even when they were mixed in with the bad stuff, proving that he is capable of doing these things. Second, the criticism that he's "slow at processing, even in college", that's the first I've heard of that issue being identified in college. Moreover, in order to make some of the "highlight" plays this analyst praised, it would require quick decision making. That said, he clearly shows hesitation at times. I attribute this not to an inherent slow processing ability, but to second guessing himself, compounded by a lack of trust in his protection (and to a lesser extent inconsistent route running by some of his receivers). Put all that together and you'll get a QB who has stopped trusting his ability to execute, thus slowing down his processing speed. Even many of the egregious short passes that he missed can be explained by these factors. He has yet to play behind a decent - let alone good - OL, with consistently good receivers, in a system that takes advantage of his strengths. I still believe if those issues are addressed, his "slow processing speed" will be fixed too. As for LaFleur, you can absolve him if you want, but he even admitted towards the end of last season that the Jets didn't handle him properly. Further, there were reports that even in the first training camp LaFleur expressed doubts that Zach would fit his system, and yet nothing was done about that. If this was true, then why didn't they get a decent vet to play and let Zach sit and learn? My guess? I think Douglas (and Woody) mandated that Zach was the QB and that LaFleur needed to figure out how to use him. LaFleur never did. He stuck to his "system", and Saleh allowed that to happen until finally Douglas had had enough. It's clear that Douglas believes that Zach has the talent to be a FQB. Given Douglas's track record with identifying other talent, I'm going to trust in his evaluation (along with my own) over the evaluation of others. If, after Zach has had the chance to play in a system suited to his strengths, behind consistently good OL play, with consistently good weapons, he still struggles, then I'll admit he's not the answer, but whether he never could be, or he was ruined by poor coaching will remain an open question for me.
Here's a deal: I'll "let it go" when everyone who continues to bash him lets it go. I've explained (and others have too) why Zach struggled his first two years, and admitted that he certainly needs to improve in some areas. But the overriding fact that he was forced to play in a system not suited to his strengths right out of the gate, behind poor OL play, and inconsistent weapons, has never been refuted (nor can it be IMO). Bottom line: If you and other Zach Bashers are right, why did Douglas let MLF leave and keep Zach?
MLF got an offer from the Rams after the season and our FO and him made mutual decision to allow him to pursue other opportunities. Of course it didn't hurt that the fans wanted someones head for the losing streak, and MLF did have some issues in the receiving room with both Moore and Mims. But nobody wants to be an OC for Wilson. He's a career wrecker. Also, we still owe Zach 20 million dollars in guaranteed money. And JD isn't going to lose face releasing that pick so quickly.
Some of you may be too young to remember, but Steve Sax was a baseball player who for one year developed such a bad case of the "yips" that they named a syndrome after him. He was a second baseman who had been a good fielder, but for one season (1983), he had a very difficult time making a routine throw to first based. He committed over 30 errors that season. He was able to recover from that , and in 1989 led the league in fielding percentage and double plays. Chuck Knoblauch was another second baseman who developed the yips. The difference was that Knoblauch was never a great fielder before he developed the "yips" and he never recovered.
We are in total agreement on this. I think the claim that he was slow in processing in college is totally bogus. We both watched every game that Zach played at BYU, and particularly his last season. There was never a snap where he looked like he was confused or lost. He was in total control. What that person thinks is slow processing could be Zach's being ultra aggressive and looking for a bigger play, so he would extend the play because he could trust both his OL and his WRs, and often times, a bigger play would be there. But let's say for argument's sake that he's correct, that Zach always has been slow at reading a D and going through his progressions. With that being the case, why in the world would the Jets have drafted him to play in an offensive scheme that requires the QB to have fast processing, quick decision making, and the ability to get the ball out quickly? That makes zero sense. That would mean that the Jets' scouts, JD, Saleh, and MLF were all totally incompetent and had no clue what they were doing and what skills/attributes the QB they drafted would need to have. If that were the case, they wouldn't have had the last couple of drafts they've had, and Saleh wouldn't have had the success he's had as a HC. IMO they trusted that MLF would make changes to his scheme to adapt to Zach and what he could do well, and to hide what he didn't do well as he said that he would do when he was hired, yet failed to ever to do. It's sad that it's so obvious to us and a few others here, but the rest can't see it. I guess it takes less thought and is easier to just go with the quick and easy knee-jerk reaction that it's all Zach's fault and he's a bust and not an NFL QB. As you said so well, if the problem was Zach and not MLF, the Jets wouldn't still be so committed to him, and MLF would still be our OC. Further, if it was a mutual decision that he leave, why would he want to leave if it was just a matter of Zach being the problem, and he had the full support of Saleh, JD, and the offensive players? After all, talk had already begun of the Jets adding Carr or Rodgers as their starting QB for this season. Why wouldn't MLF have wanted to stay and have the chance to work with them? The Jets were a team on the rise, and their D was already good enough to get them to a SB. IMO I don't think it was a mutual decision that he leave, but if it was a mutual decision, it was because MLF either felt guilty because he knew he was letting his good friend Saleh and the Jets down, or because he knew he had done a lousy job with the Jets and didn't have a clue how to adapt his scheme to Zach (possibly because he was still so young and inexperienced as an OC and working with QBs) or fix the situation. I think he realized that he was in over his head, how little he knew about working with QBs and being an OC, and that he needed to go somewhere he could learn from a more successful and experienced offensive mind. I also think it's possible that the Jets just said that it was mutual so as not to embarrass him. After all, they've gone out of their way to be kind to players that they've released or traded.
