The Ukrainian situation

Discussion in 'BS Forum' started by typeOnegative13NY, Feb 14, 2022.

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  1. Cman68

    Cman68 The Dark Admin, 2018 BEST Darksider Poster

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    I have a bad feeling those new sanctions will come back to bite us in the ass with skyrocketing fuel costs which of course, will drive inflation even higher than it already is..
     
  2. Petrozza

    Petrozza Administrator

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    which is one of the reasons why the current administration is praying for a military escalation in the Ukraine, then they can blame the Russian bogeyman for pretty much everything.
     
  3. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    I doubt guys like you have read any of the Durham investigations (since the main stream media doesn’t cover it) alleging that the Clinton campaign planted the majority of the Trump-Russia connection. But maybe you should at least read about what happened with the US and Russia during that time before saying we kissed their ass under his Presidency like Biden is some tough SOB against them.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/orde...rd-the-u-s-administrations-actions-on-russia/

    Whether you want to admit it or not, there’s a reason why Putin is threatening to invade under this administration and not the previous one. Not to mention the alleged sketchy activity of Biden and his son in Ukraine is an interesting nugget in this whole thing.
     
    #63 Jonathan_Vilma, Feb 20, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
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  4. joelip

    joelip Well-Known Member

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    There is no doubt that Ukrainian politics have been for years a "total shit show." However, it's important not to take Ukrainian censorship out of context.

    For example, "Press freedom had significantly improved since the Orange Revolution of 2004.[2][3][4] However, in 2010 and again in 2021 Freedom House perceived "negative trends in Ukraine" with government-critical opposition media outlets being closed.[5]."

    Ukraine under Zelenskyy achieved "Partly Free" scores from Freedom House in 2020 and 2021. Not great but not terrible either (0 is least free and 100 is most free on the Freedom House scale). Ukraine: Freedom on the Net 2021 Country Report | Freedom House

    Compare this with Freedom House's assessment of the current situation of Crimea under Russian control:

    "In early 2014, Russian forces invaded the autonomous Ukrainian region of Crimea and quickly annexed it to the Russian Federation through a referendum that was widely condemned for violating international law. The occupation government severely limits political and civil rights, has silenced independent media, and employs antiterrorism and other laws against political dissidents. Many Ukrainians have been deported from or otherwise compelled to leave Crimea. Members of the indigenous Crimean Tatar minority, many of whom continue to vocally oppose the Russian occupation, have faced acute repression by the authorities."

    And then there is the context of what the Russian state-controlled media (such as TV stations) have been doing in their broadcasts for years. Consider this German assessment:

    "On Russian TV, Ukraine has been a recurring theme for years. Full-scale reporting began after the victory of the Orange Revolution in 2004, which was perceived by the Kremlin as a coup instigated by the West. Until then, Ukraine and Ukrainians had been viewed as a "strategic partner" and "sister nation." Russia's war against Georgia in 2008, during which Ukraine had supported Tbilisi, represented another turning point.

    Shortly afterwards, the idea of a war in Ukraine entered the imagination of Russian, and also Ukrainian, media outlets. A number of non-fiction books predicting the "downfall of the Ukraine project" were published. At the time, they were considered the work of cranks.

    Protecting 'Russians' in Eastern Ukraine
    In the run-up to the annexation of Crimea in 2014, Ukraine dominated all media channels in Russia. As in 2004, opposition protests were portrayed as a coup. The focus was increasingly on reports dealing with an alleged danger for Russian-speaking Ukrainians. That "danger" was grossly exaggerated, there were neither attacks nor serious threats. For President Vladimir Putin, however, it was a reason to carry out the annexation. His aim was to protect Russians, the Kremlin leader said afterwards.

    Since then, reporting on Ukraine has been one of the key topics, second only to Russian domestic politics. Many observers in Russia, but also abroad racked their brains about the reasons behind this development. In hindsight, it seems like an attempt at keeping public opinion on stand-by mode, should a conflict break out."
    How Russian media outlets are preparing an attack on Ukraine | Europe | News and current affairs from around the continent | DW | 16.02.2022

    So, while Ukraine has a history of corruption and censorship, it has generally made progress towards democracy under Zelenskyy, despite ongoing Russian propaganda attempting to delegitimize Ukranian efforts toward democracy and setting Ukraine up for a Russian invasion.
     
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  5. barfolomew

    barfolomew Well-Known Member

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    We are still kissing China's ass. I wish they were a democracy.
     
  6. joelip

    joelip Well-Known Member

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    What I read in your link is a long list of sanctions imposed against Russia by the American government bureaucrats so greatly reviled by so many in our country. What I saw with my own eyes and heard with my own ears in the previous administration was a lot of kissing of Putin's ass by the executive branch of government. This, along with an "America First" "let's mind our own business" stance that I have no doubt would have only encouraged Putin to have his way with Ukraine.

    In my view, Putin is bound to become increasingly threatened by Ukrainian movement toward greater democracy and toward the West. He would be increasingly driven to put a stop to this by invading Ukraine no matter who is president of the U.S. My perception is that some of our presidents would stand up to Russian aggression and some would say, "Let's stay out of it because our gas prices might go up for awhile."
     
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  7. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    How so? CNN told you so?

    Russia was completely stagnant during the previous administration. With the new administration they’ve built up a military presence threatening an invasion that could be either a proxy war or the first catalyst to the next world war.

    Why did this just happen now? Coincidence?

    It’s the same reason why North Korea shut the fuck up and stopped launching as many test missiles into the sea as soon as Obama left office.

    Why did this happen if the previous administration was so soft on Russia?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-usa-sanctions-kremlin-idUSKBN28W11Q
     
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  8. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    Germany pre-WWII and Russia today are very good comparisons. The German aggressive expansion early on was all about taking lands (in some cases taking lands back) where there were significant German populations. Putin is focused on Eastern Ukraine right now where there is a significant Russian population. Two of the Baltic states, Estonia and Latvia have large minority Russian populations and they'd probably be the next targets if Ukraine was captured. However they're both in NATO, so completely different ball game there.
     
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  9. joelip

    joelip Well-Known Member

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    Here is one statement out I HEARD WITH MY OWN EARS AND SAW WITH MY OWN EYES (which I guess I should question because you have the truth which is different): "People came to me, Dan Coates came to me and some others, they said they think it's Russia [interference with the election]. I have President Putin. He said it's not Russia. I'll say this, I don't see any reason why it would be." [Regarding the indictment of 12 Russian nationals for election interference] "I have great confidence in my intelligence people, but I will tell you that President Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today, and what he did is an incredible offer. He offered to have the people working on the case come to work with their investigators" [i.e., giving Russian operatives access to U.S. intelligence information instead of extraditing those involved in election interference]. [Helsinki conference 7/16/18]

    I could give many more examples of ass kissing, but I guess you don't know ass kissing when you see it.

    You're right, there's a reason why Putin is feeling threatened and is responding with belligerence now. The reason is that U.S./Ukranian relations are growing closer and the NATO alliance, after a period of weakening, is now stronger and represents a threatens Russian dominance of Ukraine: "The United States attaches great importance to the success of Ukraine’s transition to a modern democratic state with a flourishing market economy. U.S. policy is centered on realizing and strengthening a democratic, prosperous, and secure Ukraine more closely integrated into Europe and Euro-Atlantic structures."
    Our Relationship - U.S. Embassy in Ukraine (usembassy.gov)
     
  10. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    Biden will release some of the stockpile to relieve inflationary pressures caused by sanctions if it comes to that.

    Sanctions are to punish the entities being sanctioned not the US public and even Biden won't be able to miss that obvious conclusion.
     
  11. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    This crisis has done more to draw NATO back together than anything in a decade or more.

    I'm sure Putin didn't see that coming.
     
  12. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    Or maybe he sees weakness in the current regime and wants to see how far he can push the limits?

    What exactly has the US and NATO done to threaten Russia since Biden became President?
     
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  13. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    This is all about Putin exploiting a narrow window of opportunity that may close in a hurry if the Dems pull off an upset in the midterms.
     
  14. Brook!

    Brook! Soft Admin...2018 Friendliest Member Award Winner

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    I firmly believe USA and Russia are the two countries who is benefitting from this escalation at the moment. Using Russia, US is showing Europe we are their big daddy.

    Macron who didn't want to join the USA, England, Canada and Australia bloc is being forced to make a choice with this.

    USA is also showing Europen countries what will happen if they rely on Russian gas in the long term. US just orchestrated a good alliance between Israel, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Greece, Cyprus regarding Middle Eastern gas and Mediterranean gas. This will reduce European dependence on Russian gas big time.

    US needs a strong Europe against China and next phase will be cut the Chinese influence over Europe and Africa.

    Japan is natural historical enemy of China and with Australia on the USA side, US is planning to contain Chine using Russia's current advancement.

    The minute Russia attacks Ukraine, I expect Biden to throw a celebratory party.
     
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  15. NYJetsO12

    NYJetsO12 Well-Known Member

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    Look at History

    In the 70s, Kissinger was smart enough to know that we need to be on good terms with Russia and China .. thus keeping them (your enemies) apart

    Unfortunately right now Russia and China are now closer than ever..so Putin has a Trump (excuse the pun) Card angainst sanctions from the West...as he gets a market from China

    On a brighter note ..China was not happy when Putin took Crimea and now supports Ukrainian independence

    China is a big business competitor but we also need to play our cards right versus Russian aggression

    Plus, To answer all the Biden haters..why would V Putin pull a stunt like this a few years ago while his buddy criminal Trump was blowing up and defunding NATO??? Lol
     
    #75 NYJetsO12, Feb 20, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
  16. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    China is a major wildcard at this point.

    They are absolutely not interested in further shocks to the global economic system - they have enough troubles with their emerging liquidity crisis in the real estate industry. So if they come to the conclusion that sanctions against Russia are causing a major slowdown they will probably backchannel to Russia that it is time to get out of Ukraine (or wherever) and let things settle down.
     
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  17. Dierking

    Dierking Well-Known Member

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    At some point we have to learn to live with them rooskis.
     
  18. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    This is a complicated proposition.

    It is unusual in the extreme for a country with lesser demographics to control the amount of territory and wealth that the Russians currently control. Obviously there are reasons that they are still in control (nukes primarily) but it would be really unusual in terms of normal historical progression for Russia to still control the amount of territory and resources they currently control in a century or two.

    For perspective Japan and Russia have similar populations and demographic trends.

    One thing that nobody is really considering is that Russia could wind up in a war, limited nuclear or otherwise, and lose a lot of territory in the process. We think that the nuclear forces that both the Russians and the US control immunize both powers against losing wars, however history tells us that the next war is usually won or lost based on new technologies and tactics which neutralize the last conflict's major weapons systems.

    Nuclear weaponry was the primary force component of the Cold War. Odds are pretty good it will be bypassed almost instantaneously by something else in the next big war that goes hot.
     
  19. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    The vast majority of Russia is uninhabitable for modern day life unless you want to hunt for big game all spring to stock up for winter and live to survive like they do in remote places in Alaska.

    Hence why no one over the course of history has survived the cold when trying to invade Russia or even dare to do so because of the conditions. A large portion of Axis deaths in Russia were because of the cold and sickness when Hitler turned his back on Stalin. Conversely, Russia spends a lot more money on defense than they do having a mobile army to go other places in the world.
     
  20. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    The world is getting a lot warmer.
     
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