It makes me feel optimistic

Sorry, but you're wrong. I specifically remember Idzik missing out on players he wanted to sign because he was too slow and methodical and couldn't make up his mind. Reports came from the Jets' FO on this. It wasn't because he was trying to clean up the cap. He wanted to sign FAs and he did sign, mostly older FAs.

His first steps may look similar, but if you look closely and think about it, they weren't at all. You give Idzik way too much credit. As you said, he was hot trash. Even Woody realized immediately how incompetent and in over his head Idzik was, and what a mistake he (Woody) had made in listening to Korn Ferry and hiring Idzik.

 

You’re really going to cite Dmitri Patterson at $3 million per year and Jacoby Ford at $740k per year as evidence for signing older free agents? Or Vick at $4 million?

Cmon dude.

 

Sorry but you’re wrong because I think of it differently isn’t really an answer dude.

I don’t give him way too much credit. He was a horrible talent evaluator. But it’s not like his blueprint was that crazy or off.

Why do you think Maccagnan had $100 million to spend his first year?

 

Whether one is being "thrifty" or overly "thrifty" is a matter of perspective.

JD thought that Lewis would be back, he had Clark that he had drafted the year before. GVR had played better in the 2nd half of the 2020 season. What OG did JD want to sign and not sign other than Thuney? JD can't be blamed for Thuney signing elsewhere. He tried to upgrade the position. In general, he doesn't want to sign older FAs, and I agree with that approach. That and the fact that he thought he could sign Thuney is probably why he didn't try to sign Kevin Zeitler when the Giants released him in March. That's whom I would have liked to see JD sign. The FA OG class wasn't very good or deep.

Remember also that he was trying to sign FAs at other positions like TE, Edge, etc.

 

I wasn't talking about what they signed for. The point was their ages. That's the big difference and why you are mistaken imo that Idzik tried to do the same thing JD did. Idzik did not trade older players for draft picks, sign mostly younger FAs, and go with a ton of young players. He didn't tear down the roster like JD did first.

A point I forgot in my first response was where did those "requirements" come from? Do you seriously think Woody knew enough to suggest Percy Harvin or Michael Vick? I suppose that you could be correct about that, but I would be totally gobsmacked if Woody was behind those moves. Rex Ryan may have lobbied for those players and Idzik either supported him or wanted to bring them in on his own.

 

The requirements come from the same people that said he had to trade Revis and keep Rex. They’re probably the same people that told Douglas to trade for Flacco this year.

 

It's not a matter of opinion, but fact! There were reports from the Jets' FO, maybe Ryan and/or some agents that Idzik couldn't make up his mind. He was paralyzed with indecision. If it were just a matter of opinion, I wouldn't say that you were wrong, merely that we would have to agree to disagree.

Mac had that kind of money precisely because Idzik didn't spend much in FA, outside of the Decker contract. Even the Giacomini and Johnson deals were cheaper. He did release Cromartie, Holmes, Sanchez, and some other cheaper players. So I was mistaken that he didn't clear cap space. But then the problem was that he didn't use the space he cleared. It was a pretty darned good FA class. He could have improved the team significantly with just another couple of signings.

 

Rightfully so.

 

This is a new and interesting take!

 

I agree. You realize this too, yet give Zach such a hard time. I don't understand that. The coaching staff (and Joe Douglas) handled the QB situation wrong in 2021.

I felt they needed a veteran QB to not only help teach Zach, but potentially start the season until Zach was ready to roll. Douglas and Saleh went a different route and threw Zach into the fire and he got burned. All he had was Mike White and Josh Johnson for most of the season. Douglas eventually admitted his own error and traded for Joe Flacco and hired John Beck, but it was too late for this season.

I think Zach was starting to get more comfortable and began playing better, so hopefully he continues to do so into 2022. As for Zach beating out Cam, we will never know. I do know Belichick would not put him on the field until he was ready.

 

I don't give Zach a hard time. He just turned in an almost exact carbon copy of Sam's rookie year. I'm not going to go down the Darnold homer road with him. Zach didn't play that well, including down the stretch, where Darnold still played better as a rookie than Zach.

Our QB was last in the league among starters. In my sunnyside days I would've said, "wait till next year", like many others. Those days are gone and I'm in full on show me mode. I just don't see how he can improve much more, and if we're lucky his ceiling is Mayfield. But even for that to happen the odds feel like about 80/20 against it materializing.

 

I'm just saying you are a smart fan, clearly understand Zach's situation this season, so I would think you would give him more of a break. We talked before about how you are in Show Me mode and I get that, but I feel it is a little more complicated with Zach. He did show me a lot this season. Maybe the statistics don't back up my optimism in him, but he made enough special plays and progressed enough down the stretch to give fans hope. At least in my opinion.

 

I agree part of Zach's struggles were he was mismanaged. Saleh and MLF were clueless here, and totally amateur. But I probably put the most blame on JD for assembling such a poor roster, and taking such a risky QB at #2 when our team was so bad. You select a guy 2nd overall and it puts pressure on the GM, then down to the coach, and down to the OC, to make him the day 1 starter. Because reputations were on the line. Like Sam, Zach stepped into a losing situation from day 1. Unlike Sam, it was done to him by a supposed new and improved staff. More than Zach, or Saleh, JD is at the core of all of our struggles.

 

I’m pretty much in show me mode with respect to Zach too. For all the “improvement” or “development” that people are pointing to, it’s very subjective. You have to look at specific throws to see arm talent (which I do think is there), or you have to make excuses such as the OL sucked most of the year, or the receivers dropped more passes than any other team (and since I was curious, I pulled his full year stats - 213 completions on 383 attempts for a 55.6% completion rate - and then pulled a stat that showed 23 drops…assuming you add back half of those because no QB gets ZERO drops, it boosts his rate to 58.7%, so still shitty), or he had scrub receivers who couldn’t get open, or whatever other excuses we can find. So while these are legitimate reasons why his stats sucked this year, the fact still remains that his stats do not show a very good QB at all.

so you need to believe a few things…namely that (a) he will naturally improve as he learns the NFL, (b) that these other factors are legitimate, and (c) that they will be mitigated next year to some reasonable extent by improving the roster around him.

I do think all those things can happen. But I also wouldn’t be betting my house that they will…I think he’s got talent but there were also enough concerns especially on the accuracy front to warrant concern. He didn’t have those issues in college I guess, but then he wasn’t facing NFL caliber defenses either. He wasn’t playing in the SEC.

so while I have hope, I’m also kind of in a “prove it” mode.

with respect to the Idzik conversation…not even close. Idzik did have the blueprint of cutting vets, but I will not give him credit for cutting Sanchez or Holmes…everyone on any board at the time was crying for the same thing. Those moves were blatantly obvious. But even still…he absolutely botched his drafts…whether Rex had input or not….passing on WR needs at 18 when he could’ve taken any of a handful of receivers at (Brandon Cooks went 20, Davonte Adams went 53, Allen Robinson went 61, etc) to take a box safety in Pryor was awful…keeping 14 draft picks instead of trading some for either moving up or for next year picks because it’s hard to have 14 rookies make a team…and then blowing literally every single pick … ugh he was terrible. Had no business being in the role.

only Woody could try different approaches like Korn Ferry or Charley Casserly, and STILL end up hiring GMs that everyone else in the league says “they hired WHO?”… crazy.

So while the high level approach seems similar, the execution is very different…not that JD has been perfect…far from it…but now that JD has his team and his coaches, this last draft was much better than his first, and hopefully this upcoming draft crushes it too

 

Yeah, can't disagree with that. Good points. Douglas needs to make moves to help this team win now. This off-season is huge for him. Saleh needs to have a win-now mentality for 2022 as well. I think they will, but if not, their tenure may be shorter than I expected. As for Zach, it is a team sport and they need to build around him, but he will need to eventually carry the team as we saw Mahomes and Allen do last night if the Jets are ever going to compete with the big boys. Right now fans would settle for competing period.

 

Huh? So Idzik and Douglas both cleaned up messy cap situations, don’t believe in spending very big in free agency and prioritize building through the draft.

The only thing you keep citing as evidence is some weird opinion on Idzk’s mentality being too methodical which is some justification for him wanting to spend in free agency, just not pulling the trigger fast enough.

It makes no sense. But you’re arguing something for no reason. The blueprint to win in the NFL for a long period of time is through the draft. It’s not like it’d be strange to think that both Idzik and Douglas wanted to do so while avoiding free agency.

You’ve just taken a sworn oath to defend JD at every turn even when there’s pretty much no reason to defend what was said.

By the way. Douglas signed Ryan Kalil (34), Pierre Desir (30), LaMarcus Joyner (31), Morgan Moses (30) and more I’m missing. So I’m not sure how you think a football GM can sign all 22 year olds.

 

He signed Frank Gore too to be a 75 year old change of pace back. Head scratcher

he signed Van Rotten to be his starting guard, never mind that he was 30 year old guard that had already been cut by 3 teams

people like to forget those Douglas signings tho

 

As others have stated I am in the show me category. Enough with the Pom Poms. The team was marginally better than the last regime and while there are some good signs pointing up, everyone needs to step up - FO-CS and whatever players they have on the roster. Establish some goals, like: establishing an Identity - are we a run 1st team or pass 1st team? Establish a winning culture by stating you expect to be in the hunt in December... to not set a BASELINE to measure progress and performance besides W-L is not only poor management but ludicrous. You cannot manage what you cannot measure and that is a fact.

So, stop the BS and put a product on the field that is competitive and can win in the NFL. You get it Woody, JD, and CS.