What Fields did transcends statistics. He demonstrated courage, leadership, and a will to win that is elite. Aside from pure arm talent, that trait is the second most important trait a QB has to have IMO. Neither of those traits can be coached really. Sure, you can teach a kid how to throw a football, and how to improve upon their arm strength and accuracy, but guys like Mahomes and Allen were born with that elite arm. And the will to win is an inherent character trait - some have more than others. They great QBs have the most of anyone else. It's why Brady, Manning (P&E), Rodgers, Montana, Young, Namath, Bradshaw, et. al. were great. And even look at Pennington who had an average arm to being with that got worse with injuries, but he was a winning QB because of his will to win. Fields was facing intense and growing criticism - for very good reasons - and dropping in the rankings. He knew this. He also knew that Lawrence is rated higher than him by most, and OSU was a significant underdog against Clemson. And Clemson started the game off strong actually going ahead at first. But Fields kept focused and making plays, and then he got nailed. After going out for one play he came back and threw a TD and never looked back. Even though he lost a big part of his game - his running and scrambling ability - he took Clemson apart with great passing and reading of the defense. Those two aspects will be noticed by everyone, but what will really resonate with his future team is how he picked himself up after a hit that would've sent most other players out of the game for good, and won. I still do like Wilson, but if I'm Douglas, I take Fields over anyone else.
We'll know a lot more in a couple of months. Right now I think the value in the draft is probably Lawrence, Sewell, Parsons and then the 3 WR's in some order. The 2nd QB probably represents low teens value and the 3rd late teens. We don't even know if Fields and Wilson are clearly #2 and #3 at this point. Chad Pennington had a great 1999 season after Randy Moss left Marshall. People were looking really hard at him as a top 5 QB capable of running a WCO to perfection. Then the Combine happened and people saw his arm up close and personal for the first time in a controlled environment. Not spectacular at all, not even particularly average for a 1st round QB. The 49ers had been drooling about Chad slipping to their 12 pick but what they saw at the Combine turned them off to Chad. He no longer looked perfect for a WCO because he didn't have the zip to throw the sideline outs and quick slants across the middle that the WCO featured. Teddy Bridgewater... Top 3 QB weeks before the Combine to "where is this guy going to fall too?" after it. If I had to guess people are going to hem and haw at Fields after they finish all the film work on him because Ohio State's system doesn't really force him to make NFL caliber throws on a regular basis. The NFL is experimenting with the RPO but there are very few teams that are looking to run it as a mainstay of their offense and that is where Fields is most comfortable. Fields arm is fine but so was Marcus Mariota's and the lack of support for the RPO in Tennessee did him in. This does not mean that Fields will not get taken in the top 5 - just that it will take a team that either is planning to move towards an RPO or a team that does not know what they are doing to make that happen. Note that taking Fields at the bottom of the 1st if he fell that far would probably be great value - again assuming the team was willing to switch up it's system to fit his strengths. Taking him top 5 and then trying to shoehorn him into a normal NFL offense just feels like a huge Mariota-level bust waiting to happen.
It has become quite obvious to me that the pressure of playing in New York is a legitimate challenge for players, to the point where I feel like some sort of psychological evaluation is as important as a physical one.
Some of these posts are ridiculous. It makes a message board fun, since we all have our own views, but I do wonder how some of your minds work! Great post by @ColoradoContrails. Well said. You had to watch the game. Not watch the highlights or look at his box score. Seems like some of these posts are from people who don't actually watch. And if they do, they need their eyes checked.
I see with all these advanced NFL stats they can tell how long the QB gets on average before he gets "pressured" -- how much time he has to throw. I believe I saw that the average for Brady or Mahomes a year or so ago was about 2.4 or 2.7 seconds. Let's assume in college it's closer to 3.5 to 4 seconds. And in High School these guys had closer to 5 or even 6 seconds (much greater variation in skill level as you go back in time). It stands to reason that going from HS to college you have less time but you DON'T feel pressured because 3.5 or 4 seconds is still plenty of time. But now you get to the pros where differences are measured in 1/10ths of a second between an OK OL and a good OL and now you have to make a decision in under 3 seconds most of the time. No wonder going through progressions, finding a receiver, hitting the open man, needing receivers to get separation.....are all so critical. And why so many guys who did it all their lives and excelled in college all of a sudden look mediocre and/or need a few years (or 5 or more) to "get it" -- i.e., Mariotta, Tannehill, etc. 6 years ago when you were in HS you had all day to make the throws and could wait for your crappy WR to separate against the other team's decent CB. In college, you had less time but 80% of the time your team was a huge favorite and the talent advantage skewed bigtime in your favor and you still had plenty of time as a QB. But now you are in the pros...and you have no time. This is what JoeD and the scouts will be doing with all those Hi-Def stats we read and see nowadays. 30-40 years ago this was all done by "gut" or conjecture or instinct. Now, it's all done with quantifable numbers and actual videotape showing the timing. Joe Montana looked lousy from a physical standpoint and probably was mediocre at the combine....but the guy could process information on where to throw and where NOT to throw like a modern day quad-core CPU whereas most of the QB's then and today were moving at x286 1980's CPU. Hopefully we get it right.
I think you're looking way too hard at trying to peg value in a draft at a position that's extremely hard to peg value at. I also always respect your opinion man, but there are really no good comparisons to Bridgewater, Pennington or Mariota. There are no physical limitations with Fields as there were with those three players - all three of which were guys that fell because they floated balls all over the field as is often seen in college. Fields has a cannon, great intangibles and is a plus athlete with great size. His question is adapting to an NFL offense and how he will deal with pressure.
Yeah I really don't get the arm strength comparisons. Pennington and Bridgewater? That almost sounds like an argument made out of ignorance or desperation. Some of the passes I saw Fields make after he got crushed in the ribs with a helmet were far stronger than either of those guys on their best day. Arm strength is not this guy's issue. However I did also see the Indiana game and what's worrisome about Fields is consistency under pressure, and that game had me all but write him off. I'd be really nervous if we drafted Justin Fields at 2. His arm talent in terms of touch and accuracy leave a lot to be desired. Then again after what I saw from Lawrence, he might make me just as nervous.
Did anyone notice OSU had like 150 rushing yards in the first half alone? Ya, that kind of helped. Clemson's defense was on their heels and a step slower all night.
I watch every throw they make in a game. Sometimes the incomplete passes are better than complete passes. When you throw to open receiver's constantly, its not an accurate representation of how a qb plays. Those are plays they should make. How do they place balls? How much touch on the passes. You watch these things on fields, they are lacking. So no this bowl game means nothing, he didnt impress me at all. Actually Lawrence in a loss impressed me way more. He looks like an NFL qb. Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
JV I love you man. You are a great football guy. So tell me, what did last night's game show you about Fields? Which one do you like more, Fields or Wilson? Trevor is gone so I am not gonna ask about him. But who do you like more between Fields and Wilson?
If you weren't impressed with Fields last night then you'll virtually never be impressed with a game a quarterback puts together. You can dislike him as a prospect and still appreciate what the kid did last night. And he far outplayed Lawrence regardless of the fact that Dabo and friends made terrible adjustments and he was under siege the whole second half. Hard not to love the performance last night. I would've liked to have seen him lead his receivers another yard on both of those bombs he threw yesterday but that's being a bit nitpicky. He went through progressions and used his eyes to manipulate the safeties. He checked the ball down when he needed to when it was clear that the coverage beat the play call. That's one thing that worried me a lot with him - take the play that's there, not the play that you wanted to make before the snap.
I could be wrong, but I don't think there's any way that Jacksonville will pass on Lawrence. They'll get crucified in the media if they do, unless the media backs off the hype about Lawrence. Our luck could truly have changed. This is a big what if, but what if Fields is the better QB and will be much better in the NFL? We could have actually lucked out by winning those 2 games. If we had finished #1 we'd have had to taken Lawrence. We'll miss out on drafting at the top of each successive round or alternating with Jacksonville, but if Fields winds up equal to or better than Lawrence and we take him #2, our future will be very different.
NO! That's defeatist thinking. Yes, that's been true in the past, but this is a different day/era/regime. Think positively, my friend!!!! Douglas is going to lead us to the promised land!!!
One could argue, Lawrence is closer to Sanchez. A guy who has been surrounded by a ton of talent and is not asked to make a lot of high level throws (just a few each game). His one good bowl game came in his Freshman year... Lawrence may have all the traits of an elite Qb, size, arm, athleticism, leadership but he’s not a consistent fluid/natural thrower. A lot of his passes when thrown into tight windows or under duress are way off. Go watch last year LSU and the last 2 OS games and tell me you have no concerns. Remarkably, it was thought you take away Fields running and he would become ordinary, but that was actually the opposite. Lawrence running was minimized and he was operating as a game manager + was not able to drive the ball down field, the few times he did, he almost threw a pick and then actually did throw a pick... No doubt he will impress in workouts/interviews and go #1... I’m not challenging that... Still, I know we’re supposed to simply believe the hype and not use our eyes, but I’m not sold he ends up better than all Qb’s in this class.
I will too, but will hope for the best if he takes ones of Wilson/Lance. If he doesn't take a QB at all, I'll probably be off the Douglas train. I'll start doubting his football knowledge about priorities and how to build a roster, and ability to spot talent.
https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2021JFields.php http://ninetynineyards.com/2020/11/11/justin-fields-scouting-report-everything-you-need-to-know/ https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/justin-fields/0mSBgLCNXv legit the first 3 links of a google search of justin fields scouting report about his strengths. Again you're wrong.
I basically agree, but with regards to Wilson vs Coastal Carolina, don't forget, that BYU didn't know that they were even going to play CC until 2 days before, they had little/no time to prepare, then had to travel cross country, they got in late, and got little sleep prior to the game. That has an impact. I think Wilson is very talented. The previous shoulder surgeries is a red flag to me, as is his size and aggressiveness. If he can bulk up without getting muscle-bound, seriously curtail his aggressiveness, stop trying to hurdle defenders, stop throwing shoulders into defenders, learn to slide and pick and choose his spots to run wisely, then I think he can be a very good NFL QB. His health will be the overriding concern.
