I get the point but to be fair, the personnel doesn't fit any sort of vertical passing game and hasn't fit that scheme before Gase was here or after he arrived. I agree though - the scheme should look a little bit more like what Bruce Arians and then Pep Hamilton ran with Andrew Luck in a vertical passing game. But that scheme doesn't work with Hogan and Berrios or the Swiss cheese offensive line we had last year. I like the game plan we had this past week with bootlegs and play action passes and what not. It's what worked best with Sam last year towards the middle of the season. At this point though, I don't think a scheme change just fixes the player unfortunately.
I agree in principle that its obviously not all on Sam. Gase holds a huge amount of blame for his awful play calling. The org holds blame for the lack of weapons. BUT riddle me this. Please envision for a second Sam Darnold throwing to Tonyan and Lazard like Rodgers last night. Does Sam elevate these players (Both undrafted guys, whom no one has heard of probably before last night) or does Sam make the same mistakes? This is an honest question and I'd love to hear some viewpoints here because I'm of the opinion that Sam probably only looks marginally better than on the jets with Tonyan and Lazard. Rodgers and other elite QB can take those kind of players and elevate them, does Sam do the same? Hell flip the script and give Rodgers what Sam had on Sunday, I'm of the belief that Rodgers has a similar stat line to last night, or at least not nearly as poor as Sams on Sunday. No way Rodgers has 2 pick 6 if you replace Tonyan and Lazard with Berrios/etc.
C'mon! You're comparing a 23 y.o. guy who has about a season and half of experience playing under two different coaches and systems, and shit for talent around him to a highly successful veteran, likely HOF QB? All I can say is that your expectations are way out of reality.
There is NO comparison I am trying to make between Rodgers and Sam, please try to see past that and get to the point of what I am asking. Does Sam elevate players like Rodgers and others or not?
Also as even more of a direct rebuttal... Rodgers: 24th overall Darnold: 3rd overall Is it REALLY that wrong to expect a 3rd overall pick to achieve some modicum of greatness? Or to at least be somewhat in the same realm as a 24th overall pick?
I understand your question, but do you not understand that the ability to "elevate" has much to do with experience and confidence, not to mention that players you're trying to elevate have to be capable of that? Try putting yourself in Darnold's shoes: he's been asked to try and learn two different systems under two different coaches, behind OLs that are among the worst in the NFL, not to mention marginal skill position players. And under Gase during games when he comes out of the game he has no support around him, no one telling him "Hey, keep your head up", or "Hey, get your head out of your ass"...nothing. If there was a textbook on how to ruin a QB, it was written by a NY Jet coach. Get Sam good coaching and decent talent and you'll see him "elevate" those around him. It might not happen in NY, but I believe it will happen.
Rodgers was expected to be the #1 pick right up until the draft when the niners for some bizarre reason decided to go with Alex Smith instead (my mate is a niners fan and bemoans this constantly) - so Rodgers was at least as highly regarded as Darnold coming into the draft and Rodgers then got picked by a quality organisation with good players surrounding him - he did not get drafted by a dumpster fire with no quality around him at all. edit: also by the time Rodgers started he was at least a year older than Darnold is now (and he had the benefit of learning behind a HOF player)
Dan Marino was the 27th pick; Patrick Mahomes was the 10th. Do you really think draft order is an accurate indicator of talent and ability?
Of course the players have to be capable of that, keep in mind we are talking about 2 UDFA that had monster games last night thanks to Rodgers, 32 teams upon their draft class did not think they had that capability, Rodgers has proven otherwise. I'd like to stop the direct comparisons to Rodgers though as I think it is diluting my point.
At the time of the draft, draft order is an absolute reflection of how teams perceive an individuals talent and ability. Because if we are talking expectations like you say mine are too high... at draft day if you draft someone third you probably have a much higher expectation of talent and ability than someone being drafted 23rd.
Regardless of who you want to compare Sam to, you need to first accept that this is a team game, and that includes especially the CS, and the system of play used. Not all QBs will thrive in all situations. Sure, a proven vet, future HOF like Brett Favre or someone like that could go anywhere and produce positive stats even with shit around him, but that's because he's had years of experience and knows how to make adjustments to succeed. Darnold has very little experience, and certainly almost no successful experience upon which to draw confidence from. And even using your Rodgers example, he sat for what 3 years behind a HOF QB before he ever played! I can't overstate the importance that football is a TEAM sport, perhaps more than any other. It requires the blending of different skill sets in order to have any of them succeed. Given what Darnold's been surrounded by, there is no way to accurately assess him. And while he may not ever be a great QB, he could still be an above average one capable of winning a SB. Flacco was not considered a "great" QB, but given the right cast around him he won a SB; when that cast became average so did he. I think you and all those here bashing Darnold have massively unrealistic expectations.
Yes. He's being coached to throw quickly to pre-scripted week spots in the defense by Gase. Why are you comparing Darnold to Rodgers??! Seriously guys. Rodgers...Darnold.
I'm not bashing Sam, he has been done no favors and I dont rest this failure firmly or solely upon his shoulders. What I'm arguing though is that I expect my 3rd overall pick at QB to be able to at least look competent. I totally understand and abhor the disservice that Sam has been done here but I cannot sit back and watch 2 pick 6s from this 3rd year 3rd overall pick QB and say no big deal, its just a lack of talent. Not when he is mechanically making the same mistakes over and over. Also the fact that we/you are now resorting to comparisons to Flacco shows just how far our level of expectation of Sam has fallen. Of course a Flacco type QB could catch lightning and produce a playoff run or God willing a superbowl, but it speaks volumes to me that instead of hoping for the great QB we thought Sam could be, we are now hoping for a Flacco level Qb.
Wrong. Draft position is based upon perceived value as assigned by 32 different evaluators and their subjective needs. By your definition Jamal Adams was a much more valuable player than Patrick Mahomes - if you're dumb ass Maccagnan this is what you thought - but in reality, as a QB Mahomes was far more valuable. And speaking of "hindsight", while most of the NFL world said that 2018 was one of the greatest QB classes ever, how'd that actually turn out so far? SO, pre-draft expectations for that draft class were obviously out of line with reality. And if was as easy as simply grading a QB on stats from his college games, and dropping him into any old team, Canton would be full of HOF QBs, but the reality is that there are a lot of variables that determine whether a QB succeeds, becomes, great, fails, or becomes a journeyman, and most of those have nothing to do with the individual QB.
No comparison to Rodgers are being drawn, it was a simple question of taking the surrounding talent around both of then and flipping it and asking you guys what the outcome would be. Don't deflect from the question at hand
Do you think Rodgers at age 23 would perform better than Darnold with this team? Mind you Rodgers became a starting QB at age 25. I need answers!
Strawman argument cool. Do you think Rodgers after 2 full seasons plays better with this team than Darnold?
