Q Williams is a monster and a better player than L Williams coming out of USC. The biggest concern, 1 year of production with Quinnen Williams. That said, he IS an elite DL that can stop the run and rush the passer. You watch tape of this guy, and he's doing amazing things to beat double teams, he's intelligent and reads blocks before over penetrating. It's not rare to see him take on a double team, read a pulling guard, clog someone else's gap, and then make a sideline tackle because the running back couldn't turn upfield (because he clogged the gap to begin with, which wasn't even his responsibility!). His lateral domination at the college level is unparalleled, and his ability to get into the backfield is a thing of beauty. This isn't your stereotypical space eater, this guy is a freaking hunter. One of the nastiest arm over moves I've ever seen! Every lineman he faced knew what was coming and he still made them look like fools. Quinnen Williams is a special player, we as Jets fans are prone to hate any DL selection (Myself included. And after watching lots of video on this guy, I have ZERO issue with him being picked at #3).Quinnen isn't ANY ol' DL selection. I'm not usually impressed by combine numbers, but a 4.83 for a guy over 300 pounds is incredible (the fastest for 300+ pounder since 2003). 3-4/4-3 shouldn't even make a difference with him, he's played zero nose, three technique, inside shade; and dominated at all of them. Moving this dude around in a 3-4 is nightmare fuel for offensive coordinators. If Gregg Williams (this is a lot of Williams talk) is going to utilize both 3-4/4-3 fronts, this guy doesn't even have to leave the field.
Q's pass-rush productivity was pretty good, I think as prospects Leo is right there with Q, remember Leo was getting a lot of love as well. The question is where are you fitting, Leo / Q and Anderson on that defensive line? I think with that lineup, there is plenty of stopping power, plenty of "meat" but we don't have any speed to compliment that interior power. I agree 3-4 / 4-3 shouldn't make a difference, but I think we are creating another clog in the defensive line. He might be the BPA, but I don't know if he fits the foof being the BPA that helps a need. But do like your assessment here.
I never once said I like him better than Bosa, quit lying to try and sound smarter. I said you either didn't watch anything or do not know much about football if you think he was not effective in that game, and I stand by it.
I like Anderson a lot, and I can see L Williams being the odd man out in that scenario (at season's end). Having Leo/Anderson around with Quinnen for year 1 isn't the worst thing in the world. DL is still a tough position, and being lights out from day 1 isn't entirely realistic. That said, I'm still not 100% sold that Williams is going 3-4 base. Something in the back of my head believes this is some kind of smokescreen. At this point, if it's Bosa/Williams at 3 - I'm with Bosa (but, that could change over the next month. I have them very close in total value.). Also, I still don't believe the AZ/Murray connection either. Realistically, I think having Williams/Bosa at #3 is all a pipe dream. Ultimately, I see it being - 1. Bosa, 2. Williams, 3. Allen.
Excellent post. Especially valid are the two bolded portions. Bosa could have played at the end of the season and in his team's bowl game, but selfishly decided not to so he could prepare for the draft. This should remind long-time Jets fans of Jon Abraham who sat out of games with a hangnail or a tummy ache. He even sat out a playoff game, when other players who are far more seriously injured or sick played. That makes me think that most of those who are so vociferously clamoring for Bosa are younger, short-term Jets fans and don't remember Jon Abraham's antics. The second point is equally apt. One poster is on record as inferring (if not outright stating) that most edge rushers come into the NFL like Bosa with polished technique and an array of moves. IMO nothing could be further from the truth. That reminds me of a now-deceased poster on another Jets fan site where I used to post. He claimed that players came out of college polished and with all the technique they needed, and didn't learn technique in the NFL. That has been proven to be false many, many times with statements by players, coaches, analysts, and one's own eyes watching players. Many players get woefully inadequate coaching in college and get by on their natural size, strength, speed advantage, and they have to learn to refine the techniques their position demands in the NFL. Some players seem unable or unwilling to put in the work to do this, but many others do. I disagree that learning new pass rush moves is so difficult, as many pass rushers improve when they come into the NFL, as do players at many other positions who refine or even rework their technique. Again, while some are unable or unwilling to learn and improve, many others are and do. Some who are unable or unwilling to learn wash out of the NFL quickly, while others who posses amazing natural athleticism and talent are able to remain and have long careers, like Antonio Cromartie.
The Cardinals really should be picking Williams at the top and work with Rosen. I hate the Cardinals right now. Loved them last year when they traded up in-front of the Fins for Rosen.
Not to state the obvious but Bosa won't be there and there will be nobody wanting to trade up for Haskins.
Good post and I respect your opinion. I just don't agree that Williams would be that effective in a 3-4 D, much less the nightmare fuel you suggest, and I think the talents that you mention would be wasted in a 3-4 D. Taking on double teams in college is one thing, but it's quite another in the NFL. Constantly having to take on double teams in the NFL will not only limit his effectiveness, but wear down that strength and speed. He simply isn't big enough to hold up at NT in a 3-4. Leonard Williams isn't either and having to play there has lessened some of his effectiveness and a waste of his talents. He is used to playing inside so moving outside would be an adjustment and would probably have to take on OTs more often than in college, which would make him less effective. Most NFL OTs are more athletic and mobile than OGs, and it's unclear how he would do having to take them on with regularity.
This is an overrated issue--and folks need to stop dinging Bosa for this--totally different issue with him. Remember how big of a deal it was when McCaffery and Fournette didn't play in their bowl games? Well it's now a "thing". https://sports.yahoo.com/college-football-players-sitting-bowl-games-2018-210123415.html This article lists at least 19--none for medical reasons. I hope folks dumping on Bosa "choosing" not to play in his bowl game aren't being hypocritically pinning for N'Keal Harry or Deebo Samuel or Rashan Gary or Greedy Williams or Noah Fant or Ed Oliver or Bryce Love or well, you get the picture. ALL skipped their bowl games. At least Bosa had a real injury that he was contending with--core abdominal surgery that was going to keep him out until November at the earliest. Possibly the number 1 or 2 player drafted with a torn abdominal muscle that could keep getting tweaked and tweaked costing him possibly millions of dollars if he drops due to him not healing properly. Nobody here would have risked that to put a few million more dollars in the pockets of OSU and the NCAA.
First, I'm not 100% sold that Gregg is going 3-4 base. He ran a 4-3 with the Rams, and if he added Quinnen, it would be hard to ignore how good Aaron Donald did in his original system. That said, every Rams fan freaked out when they were bringing in Wade Phillips to run a 3-4 base. Aaron Donald didn't miss a beat in the 3-4, and I think the same could be said for Quinnen. I don't like comparing to NFL players, but their games are very similar. These days, I think a lot of us think of the 3-4 in the wrong vein. In the 1990s and early 2000s, your DL were "mountains" and they played a typical 2 gap man over blocker technique. In 2019, your 3-4 is typically a 1-gap system, and your DL is smaller and more athletic (no more Kris Jenkins types). These guys are being used to rush the passer from the interior, and move all over the line. You hardly see guys just occupying space anymore. So with both things said, I feel that Quinnen fits that mold to a T.
I probably should have been clear in saying this. I don't hold anything against Bosa for not playing in his bowl game. It was a smart decision for his future. Rather, it's a merit for Josh Allen as opposed to a demerit for Nick Bosa. It says something about Josh Allen's character, especially because he comes from an underwhelming program in a dominant conference. He's one of the so-called "dogs" that Jamal Adams wants to play with.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. If you're right and the Jets really will go with a 4-3 base and use it 75% of the time, then I would have no problems drafting Q. Williams, although I would think that re-signing Henry Anderson was a waste. That said, I'd still rather have Bosa or Allen as we need an edge rusher. While it would be nice to also get pressure from the inside, I think it can be more easily nullified, especially if that is the main area from where any pressure from the Jets' D comes, and little pressure comes from the outside. In that sense, Q. Williams is more of a luxury pick, as he would be if Williams is playing multiple fronts and Q. Williams was only a part-time player. I know that some teams like Houston run a variation of the 3-4 D alignment and use their DEs to rush the passer more. The Jets have tried to do this over the last 10 years with little or no success. I'd rather see them go back to the space eating big DL and have a great LB corps to provide the pass rush and assist in stopping the run or switch to the 4-3. It's hard enough to find great pass rushing OLBs for the 3-4, but even harder to find great pass rushing 3-4 DEs. That's why I prefer the 4-3 base. It's much easier to find players to fit it, even though more college teams are playing 3-4 D alignments now than in th past.. While I prefer the 4-3 base, I was glad that the Jets weren't switching to a 4-3 this year because that meant that they won't have to turn over much of the D side of the roster and can focus more on fixing the offense. I thought that showed great intelligence and flexibility on William's and Gase's part. Once they build a topflight offense, then they can switch to a 4-3 front if they desire to, but the time for taking an elite DT would be then, not now imo. Q. Williams could wind up being an Aaron Donald "lite" type player, but it's hard to project that on just one season of elite stats. Aaron Donald had 2 seasons of great stats at Pitt, and two more where he was learning/progressing. He twice had double-digit sacks at Pitt. Q. Williams had one season of learning and one of elite stats, and didn't hit double digit sacks. Williams could become a great player, an Aaron Donald type in the NFL, or he could become just a good or solid NFL 3T in a 4-3 D or NT in a 3-4 alignment. I don't think one should take a player like that at #3. The same is pretty much true for Bosa. While he is very polished technically, is powerful, and fast for his size, his collegiate production is fairly pedestrian. One could make the point that surrounded with talent like he was, his production should have been a lot greater. While the point could be made that had he stayed healthy last season he would have put up monster numbers, and perhaps he would have, but it's also possible that his play might have tailed off as the season progressed. Allen had excellent production in college over 3 seasons against a much tougher level of competition, with not nearly as much talent around him, and with less refined skills than Bosa. He is also far superior to Bosa dropping into coverage, and is just as good, if not better vs the run. Allen thus has the combination of size, speed, athleticism, flexibility, production and a high ceiling that is worthy of the #3 pick in the draft.
Personally, I just don't see Bosa getting to #3. As I mentioned in another post on this thread, if it came down to Bosa/Williams - I would go Bosa at this point (he was my #1, but I'm gradually shifting). Again, I just don't see Bosa getting past the Niners. However, I love his game and I see him being a consistent contributor like his brother. Nick Bosa = Joey Bosa, in my opinion, it's like watching Joey's shadow out there. He's going to get his double digit sacks (give or take a few), year in and year out. I'm totally fine with that! Quinnen is quickly growing on me though, and i really see him as the next Gerald McCoy/Aaron Donald (he has traits of both). As rare as a good edge rusher is, an elite interior rusher is even rarer. To answer your question, I wouldn't necessarily call Anderson a waste if you brought in Quinnen. Leo is in his final year (minus the franchise tag), and DL takes a bit of time to figure out. So it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to have Anderson around, and I'm not too sure how much is actually guaranteed on that new 3/25 deal. Overall, he's a very good insurance policy. Space eating defensive lineman are a thing of the past my friend. Until defenses catch up with the offenses (it will happen eventually, they always do), we're going to continue to see the league trending like that for awhile. It's hard to get caught up in base looks these days, when nickel/dime packages have been run more than 50% of the time over the last 4 seasons. So even though I'm not completely sold on him going with a 3-4 base, it's kind of meaningless. Moreover, hearing the media/coaches talk about player "turnover" going from 3-4/4-3 when the team already had 23 holes to fill is pretty frivolous. I'll tell you right now, I'm not done reviewing Josh Allen. Until then, I'm not going to go too in-depth on my opinion of him. Depending on how that turns out, it could change how I view the Jets selection. Only thing I will say, he's insanely fast off the edge. I saw a couple plays that were faster than Von Miller, but there was also no one blocking him on those plays. Again, I haven't done my due diligence on him, so it's unfair for me to say much else.
They play the same position, but are not really similar players. Leo has it all, 6’5 almost 35” arms and 305 pounds. He was the prototype of what defenses was as an interior lineman combined with a good first step and great production. Quinnen is shorter, with and 1.5” shorter arms and smaller hands ... he does not line up as the typical DT body, or at least what it used to be seen as. That’s why some want to crown him as Aaron Donald 2.0 which is a somewhat lazy assessment. He’s not the prototype for a 34 at all, not that base defenses mean much anymore. I just hope he’s not our pick, he’s a great player but not the edge guy we have lacked for years and there are several very good Edge guys this draft.
I think that you're probably right with space eating DL being a thing of the past, at least until the pendulum swings back to the rushing attack being more important (and I assume that it eventually will). Maybe with Mosley in the middle it would be less important for Q. Williams to be stout vs the run, but if the Jets' DL isn't requiring at least two double teams, then there will be a free blocker or two to take out our LBs. I'll be curious to hear where you are once you are done reviewing Allen. Thanks for the civil and enjoyable discussion! This is what makes me love TGG.com.
Physique they are much different, but as prospects ... what is so different about them? I thought they both had great interior pass rush ability, and can both stop the run. USC and Alabama did run different defenses. Is Q THAT much better coming out as a pass-rusher then Leo? I just don't know about that. IMO, Ed Oliver is more Aaron Donald then Williams.
Good assessment, and if we didn't already have Leo, I would be okay with taking Q, but we need an elite pass rusher, and have needed one for over a decade. If Macc wants to trade Leo, and take Q, okay, but I prefer to keep Leo and draft Allen or Bosa.
I do have the feeling Leo is on borrowed time. To be perfectly honest, he's a nice player, but I don't think he's worthy of the tag. I'm curious what Gregg will do with Leo, it's boom or bust this year. At first, I thought the 3rd pick would be no man's land this year. Now, I think the Jets are very fortunate to be at 3. Allen/Bosa/Williams/Trade - All totally worth the pick.
Physique is exactly it though. Lots of NFL people really want D lineman to have those long arms. Part of why Leo was so highly thought of is not only did he have great production, but he checked all the other boxes in every way. He also had great production over three seasons. Q misses the “perfect” end of the physical traits and was only a one year starter. While this year was awesome, some will not like that it was his only NCAA starting season. It really depends on the scouts, coaches, and GM of the individual team. Rex was notorious for wanting D linemen with long arms. It was the prevailing thought for several years that is only now starting to change, just like the QB must be 6’3 notion.
It's not a wonderful position to be in but it's kind of interesting to wonder what a 4-3 With Leo at the NT and Quinnen at the 3T might be like.
