That's what all the "experts" were saying. I agree that he hasn't looked that way, but he's in a worse situation than Sam.
I'm not saying Maholmes isn't special, I'm saying it was not as obvious at the time he was drafted. Of course you can say that NOW. The Jets didn't have the benefit of looking through this 20/20 hindsight vision when the selections were made in that draft. QBs are almost never guaranteed or considered obvious talent coming out of the draft, but when it does happen they go #1 overall like Andrew Luck, not #10. If you say Macc is an idiot for not being psychic then you should be criticizing every other GM that picked prior to that. If it was that obvious Maholmes would have been picked at the top of the draft and be the first QB off the board. You are using extreme hindsight here. Also Rosen's oline might be worse than ours. That is not fact, that's pure speculation using 100% hindsight. You are assuming that those 2nd round picks don't end up being busts like most of the previous ones from Macc. For all you know the Jets end up in a worse position. It's always easy to play the "what you should have done" game. I care more about what you should do now. At the time Macc likely thought the 2018 QB class was better than the 2017 class
An immobile 21 year old who runs an old school offense that takes years to master. Or a mobile 23 year old who runs a plug and play spread. Not saying which QB will have the better career (though it'll probably be Mayfield), but it's kind of obvious which of the two was the most pro ready.
For the freaking umpteenth time, IT ISN'T HINDSIGHT. If you don't believe me, ask ColoradoContrails or Legler, or go back and read the forum from last year. I was one of 3-5 posters who really wanted Mahomes and thought he'd be a star QB in the NFL. Sam can be a special player, but imo he's not even in Mahome's class, nor ever will be. I believed that then, and believe it even more now. Mahomes has arm talent and can make throws that Sam can only dream of making. From what I have read, Rosen's OL IS worse than ours. He's in a worse situation than Sam, but I don't think he has the mindset, leadership ability, physical ability, mobility or health to match Sam.
It is FACT! I've already shown that Mac couldn't have screwed up those 2 -2nd round picks this year. Each of the players I named has had a good rookie season and been a solid contributor. There's no way that they would have wound up in a worse position. That's just stupid. It doesn't matter which "class" is better. It's what prospect is better. Mac obviously doesn't have the eye to tell that, since he bet on Hack and passed on Mahomes.
So because you thought a QB was going to be good and got it right, that means our GM is a failure for not realizing your expertise and coming to the same conclusion? I really don't see the connection here. Most experts at the time did not agree and did not think Holmes was top draft pick, in fact many had Watson ranked higher. Watson was who I was hoping for. If you are such a mark for talent, why aren't you working for scouting departments in the NFL. It sounds really easy. I mean you would have known to trade up to #1 that year and draft Maholmes. That's like saying Idzik couldn't screw up a draft with 12 picks in it. Easy to make assumptions. I'll wait a few years and see how things turn out. Please stop the insults, it's getting old, your opinion isn't the be all, end all.
This is my last post to you, because you're obviously too freaking dense to understand the simple truth. I never said that Mac was a failure as a GM for just that one bad decision. It was an epic failure of a decision, but he's a failure as a GM because of all his poor FA signings and bad draft picks.
That's probably a good idea since you get super uptight and offended over disagreeing with a personal opinion. Please grow up. It's one thing to disagree, but using personal attacks is not necessary. If you want to have an adult conversation, I'm game, but if you're just going to insult me over and over then you can go right ahead and fuck off, sir.
You're right that not many of the experts had Mahomes (not Holmes) rated highly, but their mistake was that they didn't respect him coming from Texas Tech. They thought he was just another spread system QB. They couldn't see the amazing arm talent, accuracy, arm strength, ability to extend plays, and poise. I liked Watson too, and thought he would succeed in the NFL, but not with the Jets or in the NE because his arm isn't strong enough. I'm not always right. I've missed on my share of players, but I had supreme confidence in Mahomes. The rest is just common sense. A very good QB plus 5 or more players at positions of need is gonna help the team more than one very good QB and a very good SS.
I don't get upset when people simply disagree with me, as can be seen every day on this board where other posters and I disagree agreeably and respectfully. I get upset when people are so dense that they can't see plain facts in front of their nose, and who insist on calling those facts "opinion." I also don't like being told that I'm using hindsight, when I KNOW that I'm not. I also don't like posters who try to twist my words. YOU'RE the one who introduced the idea of not getting Mahomes was not a "failure." I responded to that. We were talking about one decision, and now you're trying to put words in my mouth or twist my words and make it seem like I said that Mac was a failure as a GM because of that one decision. That's why I lost it with you.
Of the first ten picks on the 2017 draft, only two teams needed a QB - The Bears and the Jets. The Browns had traded for Taylor, and everyone else, had a QB in place. The Bears traded up to get the guy they thought would be the best fit for them. What did the Jets do? Ignored the most important position on a football team to draft a Safety. And even though KC had a pretty good QB in Smith, they traded up to 10 to get Mahomes. Does this give you any better perspective on how valuable Mahomes was seen? Except for the Jets, those passing on him didn't need a QB. So no drafted player, no matter how highly rated, is a slam dunk to succeed, and it's probably more of a crap shoot with QBs since that position is so much more complex than any other, but that's all the more reason to draft a QB until you hit. Sure, maybe Macc thought the 2018 class would be the strongest one in years, but there was no guarantee that any of them would live up to expectations, or even if they did, say healthy. And if those two major hurdles were cleared, there was the "little" matter of could the Jets be in a draft position to get one of them? Passing on the "bird in the hand" of Mahomes and Watson, banking on being able to land a better QB in 2018 was crazy, if not stupid. That has nothing to do with hindsight, that's just common sense. And sure, maybe the draft picks he surrendered, had he instead been able to keep them because he had drafted Mahomes or Watson already, maybe none of them would produce any good players, especially considering Macc's record, but if you say that, then you also have to admit that having LESS picks doesn't mean his drafting ability will be better. The only "upside" with him having less picks now is that he won't blow as many picks. To summarize - the fact that Mahomes wasn't taken until #10 wasn't due to him being deemed not worth a higher pick, it was because the teams from 1-9, with the exception of the Bears and Jets, didn't need a QB. The Bears got their guy (I don't know why they preferred Trubisky over Mahomes or Watson, but they may be regretting that choice now). The Jets, needing a QB, passed. There are only two reasons can think for that: 1. Macc still thought Hack was going to work out. If that's the case, he's even more clueless than I think he is already. 2. He didn't think Mahomes or Watson were good enough, and if that's the case, how can we trust his judgement about any players? Based pon his record, I'd have to say he's just not a very good judge of talent.
I keep hearing people say that Macc hasn't provided talent to this roster and that's why he should be fired. That's almost correct. Macc hasn't provided tons of talent, but he's done so intentionally. We cut ties with our vets at the start of 2017 and Macc took the approach of building the team with young late draft picks, undrafted players, and cheap FA pickups. It got to the point that Macc was accused of tanking. Macc knows the last two years weren't about winning, and basically admitted so when the owner came out and said progress is more important than winning. He is saving all the money for the big year (hopefully that's 2018 FA) when he planned to have a franchise QB on the cheap (which is panning out well). A valid knock on Macc is the lack of good late draft picks.It's true, but I don't think he should be fired for that. Macc is a logical dude who has hit on many trades (Brandon Marshall for a 5th, Fitz for a 7th (career year), trade up for Darnold, Sheldon for a 2nd, Henry Anderson for a 7th, Josh McCown (career year and basically QB coach)). He's made some really decent moves and his early draft picks show promise. Late draft picks are typically hit or miss...go look at the list of 4th rounders +. Very few pan out to be solid starting players. Macc is definitely below the average, but I don't see this as egregious or a serious problem. He's done enough good. Now if we are looking at someone like Harbaugh and he won't sign on with Macc, then bye bye Macc.
Do you think you could display some respect for other posters here, even if they disagree with you today? The "so dense" is a step beyond your simple "ignorant" labelling. Who knows, they might even change their mind some day and end up agreeing with you? Revisionist history and all that? Guess who wrote this on April 29, 2017? "I really like Mahomes, but with the Jets' situation, wouldn't have taken him. The odds are he never would have succeed here." Jets fans are too impatient and the pressure would have been too great to force him onto the field early."
No revisionist history. I also said that I never thought that Mac would take him because he had just taken Hack in the 2nd round the year before. I said a number of different things during the time leading up to the draft, but from the time I watched extensive film of Mahomes I loved him as a prospect. Cherry picking one quote out of many things I said is BS.
I know you said a lot of favorable things about Mahomes from the time someone posted some film - no problem with that at all. But then you were fine with drafting Adams instead of him and now you're coming down hard on MacCagnan for having done just that - you can't have it both ways. Of course MacCagnan should be better at picking than you are, that's why he gets the big bucks. The real problem, though is that you're often so belligerent and insulting with those who simply have different opinions than you do . That's not a good position to be in when you have no problem changing your opinion after the fact.
true to some degree, but when you judge someone it is always based on what they did this guy is not the talent evaluator he was sold as
I respect your opinion and feel you are one of the better posters on this forum. You make some great points here, but if Maholmes was ranked as highly as people are suggesting, and was the obvious pick, he would have been a top of the draft pick, regardless of who needed QBs and at very least would have gone #2 to the Bears. Teams would have been looking to trade into the top 3 to get that beast and there would have been competition, he wouldn't have fell to #10. The fact of the matter is that AS A PROSPECT Darnold was ranked higher and the 2018 class was considered better than 2017. I just don't think it is logical to call something a failure, when we have no idea how either of those QBs would have been developed on the Jets, nor do we know their respective futures. For all we know Darnold and Jamal make the pro bowl for the next decade plus, while Watson or Maholmes is out of of the league in a few years due to injuries. It's too early to call that a failure. By the way Jamal Adams was just named an all pro at his position in just his 2nd year in the league. Macc likely thought that the QB class wasn't that great that year and decided to grab a player that luckily fell to us at 6 who was ranked a top 2 pick prior to the draft instead of taking a bigger risk with a QB. Plus, that year was all about seeing if Hack and Petty panned out, so I understood the decision to not reach for Watson/Maholmes at #6, even though I wanted Watson that year, I won't deny that. Safety was also a huge need for the Jets that year as well, and Macc (and scouting dept) obviously considered Jamal to have a higher ceiling than Watson/Maholmes at the time. Looking at it now, sure Maholmes would go #1 in that draft if it was redone, but you have to work with the information that the scouts had at the time and he was ranked the 3rd best QB in that draft by most experts.
