I agree, but why worry about it here? His record here stands on its own and it will in KC. Last year most guys would have gone 4-12, so take the first four years for what they were and he did a good job. I turned off on him when he left after saying he wasn't going there, but I still think he's a good coach. But he did do us a favor by leaving so we could get Mangini.
We should be at least 7-4. Remember that B.S. "non" TD pass a few weeks ago? He was pushed out of bounds .... shshshshshsh, don't tell anyone!
I should let it go but the folks who are still bashing him shouldn't? I have to defend what he did, I have to post the truth. i don't want younger posters who might not have been around to believe the nonsense being spewed by the anti-Herm. he came up small when his team needed him most as he always does. 17 pts against a D giving up 33/gm just doesnt' cut it. he should have had 17 points in the 1st half. Daunte had under 200 yds passing and 1 TD w/ INT and his INT led to an Ari Fg which Ari wouldn't have been able to win the game w/o. It's a little different being 10-4 compared to 8-6 in a brutally weak conference especially after minny blew the playoffs losing to a 3-12 team in week 17 the year before. I still say Brady but I guess at this point manning is the best but he always is in the reg season. I would rate Daunte at his peak somewhere in the 10-15 range, now he's bottom 3rd. Let's say we recovered the OSK, we have the ball around our 45 yd line and need about 30 yards to get into FG range- w/ what our O was doing do you think we would have scored? Wouldn't it have been better to pin Chi as deep as possible and try to force them into mistakes? That's waht Chi's gameplan was for us and it's the reason they won. Indy was the 2nd qtr, early in the game and it caught everyone off guard. Chi was to start a half after we shut down their O in the first half and b/c we had done it and the Bears had ex-Jets on their team they kenw waht to look for. I never got a feeling Chi's O was going to start scoring alot of points. I had the feeling the team that scored first would win and we gave away 3 free points. Here come the personal attacks, I guess you know you are wrong. I only speak the truth, if you guys can't handle it that's fine. If herm made the same decisions you guys would crucify him for it but b/c it's not herm they are great decisions even though those decisions cost us chances to win 2 games. I do like his agreesive nature but why weren't we aggressive on 1st-3rd down against Indy before we follishly went on 4th down? Why weren't we agressive when down 10 we had the ball at the NE 17? Why weren't we agressive when we had 1st and G from the 10 against Chi?
It obviously would've "cut it" if the defense hadn't given up 12 points in the last 7 minutes. Note that I don't agree with this reasoning but you've used the exact same tactic to defend other QB's you wanted to prop up in the past. But because it's Culpepper he doesn't get that benefit of the doubt? This is very sloppy and quite ridiculous, junc. Oh, now the record is the determining factor? But Minnesota had "essentially clinched" so what did it matter what they did the last 2 games? Again, this is a mirror of an argument you used maybe 2 days ago and you are now refuting it because it doesn't line up with your interpretations of events. How can you claim to bring facts to the table in light of this? So Daunte was in the 10-15 range in 04? Please list who these QBs were that were ahead of him that year. Note that the Minnesota offense was 1st in the NFL in passing yards, 2nd in passing YPA, 2nd in passing TDs and 7th in INTs.
is it obvious? Minnsota had the ball 31:29 to 28:31 for Ari. 31 mins of possession isn't enough to score mroe than 17 pts against a team that was giving up 33/gm for 7 weeks? The week before Seattle scored 28 and had the ball for 26:46, the week before that Carolina only had it 22 mins and they scored 20, the week before that SF had it 31 mins and scored 50 so why couldn't Daunte lead his high powered O to more than 17 points in 31 1/2 mins? It's different when Minneosta had choked away the playoff son the final week the year before. When Minny walked off the field at washington they thought their season was over, when the Jets walked off at SL they knew they were going to the playoffs. Please note that in an incredibly weak div and conf he led them to EIGHT wins. manning, Brady, Chad, delhomme, Green, McNabb, Hasslebeck, Bulger, Favre, Brees, Ben,
Because he had a bad game. That doesn't change the fact that the defense choked their season away. They gave up 12 points in 7 minutes to a team that averaged 14 PPG on the year. If Minnesota had recovered the onside kick and Daunte turned it over then you might have a leg to stand on. It's ridiculous to blame the QB in a situation like this. So what? Are you saying that if all the games that Minnesota needed to fall to get in with a loss had been at 1 and ended before the Cardinals final TD then it would've been OK? You're really reaching here, both teams lost their last 2 games including a final game where they needed to win to control their own destiny. You can't nitpick this away. Like Delhomme led his team to 7 wins in his incredibly weak div and conf? Like Hasselbeck led his team to 9 wins and lost in the 1st round? Like Bulger led his team to 8 wins in his incredibly weak div and conf with a -73 point differential? Like Farve got bounced in the first round by Daunte? Like Green led his team to 7 wins and missed the playoffs? Like Ben choked in the playoffs with a top running game and defense? Like Chad who led his team to 3 points in the 2nd round of the playoffs? Like Brees who couldn't win a home playoff game in the 1st round? Of course all of that is leaving out the fact that Culpepper was vastly superior to these guys in regular season performance as well. Looking at the QB's from a 2004 perspective I don't see how you can come up with any list that doesn't read Brady-McNabb-Manning-Culpepper.
All those who think that Junc and 3rd should meet at Applebees tonight, last standing wins, sound off with a resounding "aye!" AYE!
Started reading all this. Read Herm.... The only thing I want from Herm right now is to lose a few games. So, the Jets get in. Stopped reading.... sorry. Nugent has made the game very suspenseful... Chad is a good QB. We need a great one. He needs: To throw the ball more then five yards more often. To throw on the run better. To throw under rush better. To mix up receivers better. To get off his primary if covered (especially by two or more) To disguise the run better. On the whole he is probably the best we have. But, I don't think it's good enough to get us to the playoffs. Hope, is all I can go on there. The Defense is the main reason I still have that. They have gotten better and better. I would not, at this time, place Chad at the top of the NFL. But, I would place our defense in the top five. Running Back play is so dependent on chemistry with the offensive line and other blockers (As is the passing game.) that I can't see just picking a back without seeing more of it. It's not the back that makes that work. It's the team. The New England game seemed to be a spark of it. Yet, the Houston game seemed to be a step back. So, the hope is there for a running game. Just, not as much as I'd prefer. PS, I mentioned Herm so If you didn't read this I don't mind.
I love when junc and 3rd debate. It's nearly impossible to disprove any of it, for different reasons of course
Again, he had 31+ mins to score more than 17 and he couldn't do it. The Jets knew they had won before regulation ended in SL, Minny thought they ahd to win to get in and had choked away a chance the year before. delhomme had half his team injured, it was miraculous that the Panthers won 7 games in '94. Hasslebeck would lead his team to a SB, Green is another choker so he's in the group w/ Daunte, Favre beat daunte 2 of 3 times they were similar players playing against brutal defenses, ben led his team to 15-1 and the FC Title game and won the SB the next year(he didn't post a 13 rating in the AFC Title game in '04 either), Chad was playin w/ a torn rotator cuff and led us to a win at 12-4 SD and w/in 2 makebale msised kicks of the title game, Bres has something to prove but he led a team that was expected to win about 3 games to 12 wins and a div title in a MUCH tougher div and conf. 8-8 in the NFC in '04 was equal to about 5 wins int he AFC in '04. Once Daunte played a decent D he choked it away against Philly- like he always does. Of the list you gave all have had moments, Daunte has beaten the saints and a bad packer team in his playoff career. he had a 13 rating against a mediocre Giant team in '00, he was terrible against Philly in '04. he choked away the finale's in '03 and '04. Daunte has NEVER been a big time QB. and by the way he choked all those years w/ incredible weapons around him and the best WR in the game(at the time). We have seen what he has done since he hasn't had Moss to throw jump balls to anymore.
Yeah, but he didn't need(or have the chance) to score more then 17 before the defense choked away an 11 point lead in minutes The Jets were in a dogfight all game long in a "must win" situation. Who knows how it would've turned out if Buffalo won, we'll never know. The bottom line is both teams got in by losing their last 2, you can't say one team choked and the other "knew they were in". But it's not miraculous that Daunte led his team to the playoffs twice and the NFC championship game once when Minnesota routinely had one of the worst defenses in the NFL? Remember this is 04 we're not looking into the future here, there's no way at the end of the 04 season you can say Hasselback was a better QB then Daunte. If Green is another choker then why did you list him as a better QB? Who cares about 2 of 3 times Daunte won the playoff game and had a monster game to boot. Again, this is at the end of the 04 season so last years playoffs are out. Roethlisberger was coming off two horrendous games, one where he almost singlehandedly choked out in the first round and the second where he did singlehandedly choke his team out. Since you like to talk about competitive portions of games you'll remember that NE was up big early and Pitt piled on garbage points in the 2nd half. Chad was every bit as bad against Pitt in 04 as Daunte ever was in the playoffs. We know the regular season numbers are beyond comparison as well. Brees had a very nice 04 but had sucked prior to this year and was almost benched early in the season. There's no way you'd put him over Daunte then. So why does Manning get a pass for his playoff failures? Because he has had better defenses and more wins in the regular season? Obviously with his recent struggles he has fallen down and out but from 03-04 Culpepper and Manning were VERY similar types of QBs and if you're going to offer one of them up as one of the best QBs of that time I don't see how you can leave the other out.
The defense held an opponent to 18 points, that's more than enough to win a game against a team that was giving up 33/gm. He had the ball longer than Ari di and led them to 17 points. We went to OT and playd things differently b/c we knew we didn't need to win midway through the 4th qtr- they lost to a 5 win team. The minny D was bad b/c daunte's bad TOs. I don't know wher the info is but I am sure I posted it about what daunte's bad INts did to the Vikes. Just last year w/ Daunte they were 2-5 and the D gave up 28 PPG and w/o Daunte they went 7-2 and the D gave up 12 less PPG b/c they didn't have the constant awful TOs. And I don't care how bad the D was anway, the NFC was a joke. The giants were the wakest SB team I have ever seen and he led them to ZERO points against them and 2 weeks laters Ternt Dilfer tore up that Giant D. In an atrocious div and conf he made just 2 POs. That's pathetic. hasselbeck had less talent to work w/ and we can look ahead. Knowing that hasslebeck has gotten it done in postseason I can give him a pass for losing in rd 1 2 years ina row. I take Green off the list, I made a mistake. Ben still put together the drive to beat us and he wasn't shut out the next week and he played against a MUCH better team than daunte did in '00. Chad had a torn rotator cuff on his throwing shoulder, he was bad against Pitt but nver as bad as daunte was in 2000. daunte was shutout(Chad has never been shut out), threw 3 INts(Chad never threw 3 INTs) and had a 13.7 rating. As bad as Chad was against Pitt he had only 1 INT and a 65.5 rating. I don't give Manning a free pas for hus playoff failures, that's why i don't think he's the bst QB in the game BUT he gets his team to the postseason in a MUCH more difficult conf than daunte played in.
They didn't "hold them" to 18 points, they gave up 12 points in 7 minutes to a team that was averaging 14 a game. The defense blew the game, period. The Jets were lucky to even be in the game, they got a KO return and INT return for a TD in the 2nd half, the offense had a measly 2 FGs. I honestly don't even know what we're arguing here, as both teams lost their last 2 and both made the playoffs. You seem to be trying to explain away that FACT. This is patently ridiculous. From 03-04 Daunte had 22 INTs in 1002 pass attempts. He also accounted for 70 TDs over the same timeframe. And please stop with the Brad Johnson/Vikings defense myths. I predicted Minn would go on a run last year because that middle part of the schedule was so awful. The Vikings were 2-6 against teams .500 or better last year(one win was the fluke against the Giants where they had a KR, PR and INT for a TD, the other was a meaningless week 17 game against the Bears) and 7-1 against teams under .500. By the way, that one loss against the under .500 team was week 16 against the pathetic Ravens O where the great Vikings D managed to give up 30 points to Kyle Boller without Johnson turning the ball over. Yeah, Dilfer went 12-25 for 153 yards and a TD. MONSTER game. He absolutely tore them up. This is where you lose your credibility junc you allow your emotions and hatred of the Giants to provoke you into stupid statements. If we're looking into the future then what's even the point of this discussion? Daunte is nothing even remotely resembling a top 10 QB at this point, he'd probably be in the bottom 10. You said that during his prime Daunte was never a top 10 QB. In order to determine that we have to look at what the other QBs in the league were doing at the time, not what they would do a year or two later. Just so we're clear, if you want to say these guys are all better QB's then Daunte now I'd probably agree with you, but that was never a question. I think I've proven pretty well that Daunte was absolutely a top 10 QB in his prime, and probably top 4 as well.
With all the quotes (several per post) it tends to read like a friggin technical document written by opposing forces.
Arizona score just 18 points fro the game and had the ball LESS than the Vikings. That's all we need to know. Daunte couldn't lead his team to more than 17 pts against a team that had given up and was giving up 33/gm. Who cares? We went to OT and by the time we were in OT we were in the playoffs. Much like ARod many were in garbage time, his play in the clutch was horrible. He also had 25 fumbles and lost 10 in those 2 years and led his team to a TOTAL of 17 wins in 2 years in a division that and conference that were a complete joke. OH so the sched matters when his backup comes in but not when daunte is in? daunte needed to beat 3-12 Ari and 5-10 wash in the final weeks of '03 and '04 to get to the playoffs and failed both times but that's ok b/c it was Daunte. The facts are Minny's D gave up 12 less PPG when Brad was in there b/c he wasn't turning it over all game in bad spots like Daunte. daunte has always had an easy sched to deal w/ and he didn't win like Brad won last year. Culpepper played 4 playoff teams and lost by an average score of 32-9, Johnson lost to 1 playoff team and beat 2 and that 1 playoff team was Pitt and they lost 18-3 but the game was close until late. 0-4 v.s 2-1, losing by 15 or losing by an average of 23? You decide. Oh by the way, johnson was 2-1(66%) against .500 or above teams, in daunte's career he is 14-27(34%). Last year johnson was 5-1 against .500 or below teams(83%), Culpepper is 24-15(62%) in his career. I lose credibility b/c of being half wrong on a statment(he didn't tear them up but he played really well, the biggest play of the game was the deep TD to Stokely and he had an 80 rating which is better than 13, right?) but when go on about Culpepper not having enough time tos core more than 17 against Ari(even though he had the ball for 31 mins) and being up the easy sched w/ Brad Johnson you don't lose credibility? You are saying the Giants were not a weak SB team? name me a weaker SB team? Only SD '94 comes close. I use winning, stats and performance under pressure(raealtive to talent around the QB) to judge QBs and Daunte has never been a true top QB b/c he doesn't come through when his team needs him.
