I'll say two things in response: 1) Mangini did in one year what it took Herm 5 years to do: win a game vs. New England. The longer we went along into Herm's tenure, the more I became convinced that we would never top NE under Herm's administration. Just couldn't out think the opposition. 2) NYJ vs. Buffalo this year. Coming off the Indy loss, this is a game we would lose in prior years. It seemed that after the 2002 season (when the Parcells teams started to be dismantled), we couldn't rebound from tough losses. Even the '04 season was more a function of getting out of the gate strong vs. weak competition and holding on for dear life. I appreciate Herm's playoff apperances. I do. But he was already setting the expectations for a horrible season in '06 by saying the offense needed a complete overhaul. While I think we're still missing some pieces to the puzzle for sure, it seemed like excuses were being substituted for hard work and determination to become a better team. That's where the frustration with Herm for me will always be.
Herms first win as a HC was @NE in 01(the bledsoe injury game) and he won there again in 02, just FYI.
He wasn't a terrible coach but nor did he "do a good job here." I don't think I have the bandwidth, the time, the patience or the inclination to expound on the number of ways Herm screwed up this franchise. His play-calling, his selection of players, his penchant for going with veterans well beyond their time, his lack of development of talent, his marshmallow camps and his dumb clock management frustrated even the most unsophisticated of fans. By observing our present coaching staff, even the most novice of fans with extremely limited knowledge can this year witness the true meaning of "play the game to win," as opposed to what we did last year. Only a fool would not recognize the difference between talking the talk and walking the walk, which is the shell game Herm had on the table at all times. It's also possible to appreciate being stung by a Portuguese Man O' War and still like swimming, but only if you're into excruciating pain and self-mutilation. Why is it not possible for a fan to despise Herm and still like Mangini? Doesn't that seem the best of both worlds? This is certainly true, but damn... it sure is fun, ain't it? Besides, Mangini's a better coach regardless of how stupid Herm was. This is not exactly the poster-sensitive, non-name calling response one would expect from somone soliciting sensitivity, consideration, kindness and non-Herm bashing. But have it your way and let me understand this thoroughly: it's okay when you call posters insane but it's not okay when someone bashes Herm. Okay, I understand now.
Herm got his first ever win in week 2 of 2001 at NE, he also led us to a win at NE in Week 16 of 2002 or else NE would have won the division in '02 as well. yeah we never rebounded from tough losses except for: -2001 at NE after losing to Indy, at Buf after losing to SF, at car after losing to SL, vs. Cincy after losing at Pitt, at oak after losing to Buf(our first win in Oakland since we were the Titans). -2002 crushing the 6-1 Chargers after losing a heartbreaker to Cle, beating den after losing to oak, beating NE and GB after loisng to Chi. -2003 beating Jax and Ten after losing to Indy.(Ten was the hottest team in the league at the time) -2004 beating Cle after the crushing loss to Baltimore, beating up Sreattle after the tough lsos in Pitt, beating SD at SD in the playoffs after losing the alst 2 reg season games. Yeah we never won after tough losses How do you guys forget this stuff so quickly? He really screwed up this ranchsie by taking a team that missed the playoffs the previous 2 years and 12 of the previous 14 years and made it 3 in 4 years. people forget that THREE HC's walked out on us, Herm saved us further embarrassment and made us better than we were when he took over. Like when we were down 24-14 to NE and got to their 17 and and we ran it 2 times setting up 3rd and long so we had to settle for the FG? like against Indy when we had 1st and G from the 7 and ran 3 straight times setting up 4th and G from the 3 when we went for it foolishly costing us the lead late in the 3rd qtr? Like having 1st and G at the Chi 10 and running 2 times to set up 3rd and G from the 5 setting up a near impossible play? He is daring at times but he's too conservative at other times. His daring can be quit foolish as well. He cost us chances to win the Indy and Chi games w/ idiotic decisions. I am willing to live w/ that b/c he is a 1st year coach and I see alot of good in him but he has cost us w/ those decisions.
Your point was he never beat NE which Mangini did but Herm beat NE 2 of hi first 4 games against them including a game that cost NE a div title in 2002.
Not to beat the Herm thing to death, but I find it quite funny that Dick Curl is still the time clock specialist in KC.
Herm beat a pre-dynasty Patriots team with Parcells left over SB contending team, and then he let it fall apart and when the Patriots got good could never beat them again.
I also appreciated our playoff appearances under Herm as much as you did and all of us did. In fact, for the record (and I'm not sure I should freely admit this), I was a die-hard holdout for Herm on this board long after many had given up on him. I was always with the "3-4 playoff appearances" argument last year and chose to use that almost exclusively (and for lack of any other ammunition) as a basis for overlooking the deficiencies. I'm going to say that my opinion began changing shortly after I attended the 4 two-a-days at TC in that hot August of '05. I reported here on the board about my observations, which was that I had witnessed a shockingly inadequate and soft TC. But still, I was willing to give Herm the bye... I gave him the pass still based on the 3-4 playoff appearances and looked forward to seeing what we could do in Kansas City in September. My negativity increased dramatically when the debacle at Arrowhead unfolded. I could now put 2+2 together and see the effects of the pitiful TC as it related to the woefully unprepared team we fielded at Arrowhead that day in which Pennington spent the entire afternoon running for his life and really should have been knocked out of the game that very first day. The excuses following that loss seemed..., well, dishonest. Especially so in lieu of having seen the TC with my own eyes. Instead of owning the responsibility, Edwards dispelled it and lashed out at the press in typical "your best defense is a good offense" mode. He never admitted to his weak TC and lack of preparation but instead went into statements like "you play the game to win" bullshit. I had then turned the corner on my Herm decision and once that happened, I was then able to watch the games without looking through the "escuse filter" that I had set up for Herm. I'd watch the playcalling and inexcusable clock management and Lamont Jordan on the bench and all the other crap, all the while Herm was denying he was going anywhere or that he had entered into preliminary negotiations with Kansas City. The final straw was when the KC flap opened up and it became obvious that his focus had not been with the Jets for quite some time and that he had been biding his time until he could split. By this time I was hoping the door would hit him in the ass on the way out and I'm just so happy that everything turned out the way it did. We got rid of this snake and picked up Leon Washington in return. Then we got Mangini and it's just a whole new breath of fresh air...
So you thought Herm did a good job until you saw a day at TC then you were willing to give him a pass to see how they did at KC and you now base everything off the opener at KC? I think it was time to go though I would have been fine if he stayed, I also think mangini was a great choice and I am very happy w/ who we have and I wouldn't trade back but I still appreciate what we did under Herm and Herm was a good, not great, coach and still is a good coach doing a very good job in KC.
I wasn't aware of this. Can this really be so? Doesn't everyone here on this baord, and I am talking even the most die-hard of Herm fans here, find this excruciatingly embarrassing, not only for Herm himself, but for the Kansas City Chiefs organization and the entire NFL for that matter? You have a head coach who not only does not have the mental capacity to figure out how the clock works in relation to what you should be doing with the time left, he doesn't even possess the managerial skills necessary to hire someone to correctly do the job. I mean, come on. This alone is inexcusable! If a guy can't mentally manage a clock on his own, how the hell do you expect him to process the information necessary to make far more complex decisions at a much higher level (player personnel, draft decisions, making cuts, plays to call, complex schemes, etc., etc.). I mean, come on now. This is f@cking ridiculous already.
Do you usually have difficulty concentrating or is it only when you're emotionally involved in making lame excuses for Herman Edwards? I said I saw 4 two-a-days at TC in 2005, not one day. I didn't base everything off the opener at KC, but it certainly was a shocking game. Are you telling me you did not have grave concerns after watching that debacle? That loss was far more telling than even our loss, for example, to Jacksonville this yaer, even though we were shut out. The Kansas City game was a pivotal turning point in Herm's career here, even though I'd probably never be able to get you to admit that. That game, and the games and excuses that followed, defined Herm's tenure as our HC. It wasn't, unfortunately for Edwards, his 3-4 playoff appearances (actually 3-5 at the end), it was the unveiling of his complete and utter incompetance as a HC that did him in. Up until then, he had been able to disguise his inability. After KC, it all came unravelled.
All great points. The bottom line is that the only things we have gone after EM on is game decisions...should we have tried the onside kick..should we have gone for it on 4th down? The game management has been spectacular to say the least...the preperation has been outstanding. When you turn on the tv or show up for a Jets game, your going to see well coached football. And as a poster above said..when we get beat..its not because we were the better team with almost ever loss. We have blamed the refs..and we have on occasion blamed the players. Not the coach. This has been the biggest surprise of any teams I have ever routed for. Didnt know what to expect...this guys is the goods...and Woody should tie this guy up as soon as possible.
Herm says "play it close, keep the score low, play conservatively and we mite win the dam game. Eric says "plan smart, be smart, play smart, keep your opponent guessing and we'll win a championship". I like Eric too...
Why do 99% of the posters on this site say the same thing. What you fail to see..and junc Im not saying you are wrong, is that its not just a hatred towards Herm and a love for whoever would follow. Most of us really got pissed off with all the stupid little mistakes he made during a game. The reason many of us really respect him and would never..never respect Herm is that if mangini had to, he could actually devise a defensive gameplan. Herm has never designed a play on either side of the ball..and probably couldnt. Herm was a cheerleader. Herm was very good at keeping the players involved when seasons were going down the tubes. He did a very good job the year we started poorly and rebounded to make the playoffs. Thats Herm strength. The appreciation many of us have for Mangini is purely football related. Manginis are rare...loudmouth coaches that use their mouth instead of their brain are a dime a dozen.
Nyjunc, I think you've made my point in your above statement. If it was time for him to go, why would anyone be "fine" if he stayed? Seriously, read your above sentence and see if you can't decifer a discrepancy there. Surely, as a Jets fan, you want to be a winner. How could a fan who wants to win agree that it's time for a coach to go, yet be content to have him stay? Thank you for making my point for me. Yes, Herm was a good (not great) coach and we can appreciate the good we did under him. But doesn't a fan who wants to win want a GREAT coach, not a good coach? Given the choice, you'd take the great coach, correct? Can we agree on this? That Woody deserves a lot of credit for getting us out of the Herm Edwards contract and into the contract with Eric Mangini, however that may have come about and however much we may have had to caution Edwards into not letting the door hit him in the ass on the way out.
A few games ago, I noticed a grey haired man standing next to Herm, and I said No way that can be Dick Curl. On thanksgiving I noticed the same guy, so I went on the Cheifs website to verify, and sure enough Dick Curl it is!
Don't overlook my caveat that the '01 and '02 teams were still Parcells' teams. You can cherry pick all you want; so will I: '03: lose to Washington in tough opener, lose to Miami the following week '03: win on Monday night vs. Tenn was a trap game (Jets lose final 3 of 4) '04: lose to Buffalo after Chad goes down, lose to Baltimore the next week '04: lose to NE in Wk 16, need win vs. St. L to secure playoffs and they lose '05: don't get me started
for a team picked to go 4-12 and at best 5-11 to be in the playoff hunt come december is all a fan can ask. When i buy my tickets every year the only thing i ask for is to let the game in december count for something so i can really enjoy going to the games and not just go through the motions to end the season. This team competes and has a mind set that they can win every week. Mangini prepares and hasn't used any stupid lines like you play to win the game, a punt is a good drive, or shrek wins
After the Indy game I thought long and hard about that game and couldn't believe we hung in there so long, with who maybe SB winners. With the close game with NE and the win at the Bills , the feeling certainly is more upbeat than in previous years , expect the unexpected.
