15 days is too long especially with this slow drip of information. But then we can celebrate Mayfield Day or Josh day.
I was trying to keep it open ended for both possibilities but I understand the problem and agree the second possibility can cause some anxiety.
Ahhhhhh! 15 days! This shit is torture. If my wife and I weren't expecting a baby in late May/very early June, I think we would have made the trip to Dallas for this draft. Can't Wait. I keep bouncing back and forth, but currently I rank them: 1a- Mayfield 1b- Rosen 2- Darnold 12 (lol)- Allen I will be satisfied with Rosen or Mayfield, but I give the slight edge to Baker for his incredible leadership and accuracy (No, I am not talking about his completion percentage)
I want to make something clear. I like Josh Rosen, and I like Lamar Jackson. This topic is Baker Mayfield, and everything you've posted is about Rosen and Jackson. I'm not going to spend time disputing what you see in Rosen and Jackson, because I see many of those same things. I've been saying for months that Jackson is very underrated. Like Mayfield, Jackson's performance has gone up every single year. It is a positive sign. Being that the topic is Mayfield, as that is where we really don't see eye to eye, I won't accept evidence for the other two as being evidence against Mayfield. You raised a point about one of Rosens throws and not having seen it with Mayfield: this is fair, and I'll take a look at that. The rest of it though is still you just saying you have preferences and that is all the evidence you need against Mayfield. Also concerning credibility: I could care less. Credibility on this forum is worth less than what I pay for my internet access to get here. If someone doesn't like what I bring to the discussion, they can block me or tell me to go to hell or whatever. No sweat off my back. In the case of this discussion, I perceive you to be an intelligent well researched individual. I don't get the feeling you reach your conclusions because of one daily snooze article you read during a morning commute 6 months ago. That's why I see this debate as worth having. I'm looking to be challenged on my own notions about Mayfield. You're only showing me why Rosen and Jackson are awesome 1st round worthy prospects, and I already agree with this (I prefer Jackson to Josh Allen). I think at the end of the day, we apply different weights to different criteria. You value the "prototype", or something resembling it. I value overall ability, consistency, heart, and desire. You also raised the Georgia game. When has Rosen ever faced competition on the level of Georgia? By my count, Washington is the only game of that caliber Rosens played in. You mentioned that Mayfields rib injury is not an excuse. Ok cool. Rosen was benched against Washington after getting sacked four times and hobbling around while UCLA was routed. Mayfield, despite being injured, kept Oklahoma in the game against Georgia. It wasn't the prettiest performance by any measurement, but he kept them alive and gave them a chance. He played through the injury. UCLA lost to Washington because of their awful run defense, not because of Rosen. My point is don't apply one criteria to one player, and not to another. In Rosen's case, I seriously doubt anyone has any more concerns with his character. The way I see it, if Rosen falls at all, there is only one reason: durability. If teams feel he won't stay on the field, then he will fall. We know he's nearly perfect for a pocket passer prospect (minus some of the poorly timed interceptions or near interceptions). The character concerns are overrated. It's simply durability. Rosen hasn't played a full season since his freshman year. Concussions aside, he has been beaten up repeatedly. This is something neither you nor I have access to know how he's grading out by NFL medical staffs. We'll find out on draft day.
Just out of interest who are we meant to believe or who do you believe ? Do you believe the person that had Hack going number 1 the year he was running a pro offence as a kid ? http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...hristian-hackenberg-could-be-drafts-no-1-pick The guy who also thought Geno was a lock at number one a year before he came out. https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2012/12/21/3790082/geno-smith-nfl-draft-chiefs-no-1-pick How about the guy who thought Lynch was the bee's knees at QB http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...-draft-wentz-goff-lead-deep-quarterback-class For those who don't like clicking... Top 5 players 1. Carson Wentz: Still in developmental phase after just two years at an FCS program, but has the mental and physical building blocks of a future, franchise quarterback. 2. Jared Goff: His accuracy and decision making will suffer from occasional lapses, but he displays the tools to become a good starting quarterback with time. 3. Paxton Lynch: While he has the physical tools to start right away, a team who is willing to allow him to sit and study his craft for a year could reap maximum rewards in the future. 4. Connor Cook: Cook flashes the potential of an NFL starter, but he has the makeup of game manager over playmaker. 5. Christian Hackenberg: Hackenberg's tools, intelligence and experience under center should make him an eventual starter, but his boom-or-bust potential could either get a coach an extension or fired. Sources Tell Us "Wentz really blew us away at the combine when we met with him. Talent is a big component, but these guys have to have intangibles if they are going to lead franchises, and he's got them. I don't care where he played, he understands the game and it isn't too big for him." -- AFC team executive Most overrated Dak Prescott: I don't agree with the masses when it comes to Prescott being the sleeper at the position. A sharp increase in his short game passing attempts helped to skew some of his data in a more favorable light, but there were still issues with some of his intermediate throws and with getting through his progressions. I love his size and football character, but I see him as a career backup, not as a starter in the NFL. Most underrated Jacoby Brissett: Brandon Allen could fit in here, but he's getting more love nationally. Brissett gets the occasional side-eye before people move to the next quarterback, but that might be a mistake. Despite facing enormous pass rush for consecutive seasons, Brissett still found ways to fight through the pocket noise and make plays. He has NFL size, an NFL arm, and experience under center. With an ability to extend plays with his feet and throw on the move, Brissett offers a skill-set that matches up with what teams look for in today's game. Boom or bust Christian Hackenberg and Cardale Jones: In many ways, these two quarterbacks are the same guy. Both quarterbacks have ideal NFL size and booming right arms that can leave your jaw agape. Of course, half the time your jaw is hitting the ground in awe while the other half it is hitting the ground because of their wild inaccuracy on the simplest throws. Accuracy issues are extremely difficult to correct, which creates a low floor for both, but the talent and traits give them "boom" potential. Or we have this guy telling us that he thinks Petty was the 4th best QB in 2015 http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...nfl-draft-lance-zierleins-top-10-quarterbacks You get my drift though right ? Being an expert seems to qualify you to chat as much shit as the man on the message board
Tired of talking about personalities, they are football players not interested in dating our daughters.... I am concerned about Rosen's ability to throw on the run. He's got fantastic fundamentals in the pocket but the WCO the Jets ran last year is a lot of play action, rolling out and throwing on the run. Rosen sucks at that. I dunno what Jeremy Bates intends to do but I think if you are going to draft Rosen you'd have to change this offense a lot as Mayfield is probably better for this system
So because some have been wrong with a few of the QBs over the past 6 or so years the rankings of these guys don't count? I'm not arguing that these guys are right, I'm arguing that this is the way they're ranked. Funny we don't think the rankings are to be trusted because they sometimes get it wrong but want the good things written by a few taken as fact. Don't know who ultimately will be right but the way they've been ranked generally has been Darnold, Rosen, Allen then Mayfield. That they missed on Lynch doesn't make the ranking wrong
Do you have links to the rankings you keep referencing? Because all I can really find is mock drafts and that’s definitely not an indicator of how experts actually rank QBs. There are a few tweets here and there quoting some tv appearances where guys give the generic “_____ is going to be the best QB in this class” but I don’t see true broken down rankings.
Bold Point 1: No doubt this topic is absolutely about Mayfield, but you have to compare him to other prospects in my opinion, how does he rank? Its a comparison in skill-sets, its the way to evaluate the class. Mayfield, IMO is not deserving of a top 3 pick and in reality neither is Jackson. I think Darnold and Rosen seperated themselves from the pack in which, there is 0 chance they slide out of the first 3 picks. I had trouble taking Lamar at 6; you think I would take Mayfield at 3? In reality, I don't HATE Mayfield, I just don't think he's as special as many say. Bold Point 2: Don't take the credibility comment seriously, you struck a nerve when you said Mayfield was #1 in arm strength. I couldn't believe it lol. I was actually hurt when you said that. This has been a great debate for sure, you are an intellectual as well, you've been on this board for a while now, I got nothing against your opinion outside of this bold point Lol. I will always respect a person's opinion, outside of those that resort to name calling to make their argument look good. Rosen's toughest games. You can put on the Stanford game on from any of his years along with Washington. His freshman year specifically, was a tough outing for him. I do believe however the Sooners have always had a better roster then UCLA. The amount of high draft picks from that offense is legitimate. From the weapons to the offensive line. I do question is Rosen can carry a team for 16 games, durability is a concern for sure. Whoever drafts him has to ensure there is a decent line with a good pass catching back. I definitely agree with you in terms of his durability as you provided earlier. I still think hes Matt Ryan / Eli Manning w/ Rodgers personality but we shall see. Mayfield played a tough Georgia team, but other then that, not many other great defenses. But I guess then you would have to argue which defense was better the last couple of years, TCU, Texas, Stanford or Washington. The only game I was REALLY impressed w/ Baker was the Ohio State game (2nd go around). A motivated Baker is a tough cookie to crack. IMO it was his best game. I will watch it again too, because I couldn't understand why Darnold struggled and Baker excelled. That's why I put a lot of stock on the OU system. The one thing I took away was the fact that Baker can manipulate defenders by looking off safeties, but the footwork isn't completely there. He can put the ball where it needs to be for the most part, but I've seen Rosen do it just as much, so thats why I don't think Mayfield is absolutely the most accurate QB in the draft. Most think Mayfield is 10/10 in accuracy but in reality, I would say its a solid 7. Metrics IMO don't work as much here. I also wonder if he can stand pat in the pocket and make throws. Not go for the scramble run around and make a play. How could Baker ball out on the Buckeyes, but Darnold couldn't muster a solid half (undermanned I do add). I have honestly tried my hardest to like Baker like the majority of Jet nation. I just can't get there. I probably won't, but if the Jets get him which is very likely, Ill dance along just like everyone else.
No, but it was in reply to you slagging off the man on this board because he wasn't an expert, so these were are some expert opinions of previous years as an example as to how much they actually know, which is in response to your "it has been accepted that Darnald, Rosen and Allen are the top 3 and have been for two years" line. Hack was number 1 two years before he was drafted in the 2nd round and bemoaned by all as a reach in that round, currently hard to deny that tbh. Geno was proclaimed to be the number 1 pick all the way up to the actual draft and then we got him in the 2nd round after nobody selected him and I believe with our third pick. So which expert was ranking these players to go at number 1 and why should it be any different for the three you mention ? And why is this turned int oa sleight on Mayfield ? You then proceed to rattle on about the Mayfields height yet again, plenty of other short QB's or QB's within an inch 1 of Mayfield's height, all your post shows is your dislike for Mayfield and that then makes most of what you typed biased with no actual objectivity. So we can move onto Allen's 54% completion stat, nobody has ever made it as a Pro with such a low average coming out of college, so again A spread offence QB is not ideal there are plenty who have made it as an NFL QB but nobody with such a low completion percentage, a damning stat but maybe Allen can be the man to change that, who knows. (this stat was read by me in a post in here and not researched by myself so if it is wrong, shoot me.) For the "1000th" time I think all of the 4 have faults and not one of them is a sure fire FQB and it is a massive risk which ever one gets selected but I remain with an open mind and don't really care which one we select as long as it is the one we want and not the sloppy seconds after somebody else has picked the QB that Mac actually thinks is the guy, as I would be surprised that 2 of the 4 end up as long term FQB's. I wanted Barkley btw, so if we get Mayfield you can join me in the not drafted who I wanted party.
Glad you mention the Ohio State game. Mayfield had a throw in the Ohio State game that I was particularly impressed with. It was in the red zone. He was looking to his right, no one open, then pressure came. He stepped UP and inside and it looked like he was gonna run. But at the last second he threw a fastball to the breaking receiver on the left. perfect pass in between the man cover guy and the safety over the top. That was Favre-like
I believe you are referring to this play at the 7:15 mark? He manipulated the defense much throughout this game, it was impressive to say the least. OSU tends to have a great secondary with good linebackers and the defense just got Mayfield'D all game long. OSU is a stellar defense, but they weren't in great position much of the game. Baker dominated the game.
Good post. This draft in particular, there are three factors I'm looking at: 1) We are at pick 3, therefore I want to evaluate who my top 3 are. 2) We traded away pick 6 and 3 seconds to get to pick 3: that is a lot of capital, so in my opinion it has to be for a QB, because only a QB can alter a franchise to the same degree that four good starters could. This is a good QB class in general, so it's reasonable to build a top 3 with QBs only. 3) I really believe that much of NFL level success involves fit. I think there are good prospects who flame out in bad situations (David Carr) and so so prospects who excel in the right situation (Dak Prescott). As much as I'd love to sit and speculate about which team gives each player the best chance to succeed, I'm afraid that will lead me down a road where the answer is never the Jets. The Jets, frankly, have done a terrible job with the position. Even when we experience a lightning strike, the Jets find a way to dissipate it rather than harness it (Mark Sanchez). I'm a Jets fan, I root for the laundry, and I'm going to look at this from the Jets perspective. That led me to evaluate what we are getting in Jeremy Bates. Everything I've read about the guy, his history, schemes he's run previously, etc leads me to believe the offense will involve a lot of action outside of the pocket. Bates does this because he's the type of coordinator to scheme both to his players strengths and also to the opponents weakness. Sometimes that means operating more from the pocket, sometimes that means operating outside of the pocket, sometimes that means doing abnormal techniques to exploit matchups. This can also sometimes get coaches like him in trouble because the players executing the scheme do not possess a diverse enough skill set to take advantage of the situation. This is where Mayfield has a huge advantage in my mind. Mayfield has the most diverse skill set of any QB in this class. He is not the best pocket passer, Rosen is. But Rosen can't and hasn't done outside of the pocket what Mayfield has and can do. Jackson on the other hand can do things outside of the pocket that Mayfield can't do, but Mayfield is much more consistent and capable inside the pocket than Jackson is. Mayfield isn't elite at any one things, except perhaps leadership (which is tremendously important at QB), but he's both capable and highly competent at everything. More importantly, he is consistently accurate and safe with the football in any situation you place him in. He can do every single thing Bates could ask of him, where Rosen can do less, but perhaps better. In terms of leadership, Mayfield is an excellent foil to Todd Bowles, just as Adams is on defense. He is the right personality for this team, just as Adams is. This would not have been true with Rex Ryan, but it is with Todd Bowles. Bowles, in my eyes, holds value in terms of being the sort of steady hand Mayfield needs to keep his more aggressive tendencies in check. I think Mayfield can thrive with this coaching staff. In terms of arm strength, even if you are right, and I'm wrong, who cares? Mayfield has repeatedly pushed the ball 50+ yards down the field accurately. The most accurate in fact. While having the ability to go further is nice, how many times per season will a player actually need to do this? It is more important that the pass connect, in stride, than it is that you can reach one endzone from the other. There is no offense in the league that is trying to score on every 1st and 10 from their own 5 yard line. Regardless of who's arm is best and worst, every one of these guys has the minimum arm needed to complete every throw and to generate points on explosive plays. There are no Penningtons in this group. Daniel Jeremiah points out how it is difficult to see how live Mayfield's arm is until you've seen it in person. Here is the full evaluation (he has Rosen over Mayfield fwiw): http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...emiahs-top-50-prospects-for-2018-nfl-draft-30 In terms of tough defenses, Stanford was the third hardest defense in 2016 when they ranked 36 in YPG and 17 in PPG in FBS. UCLA lost that game 13-22 with Rosen posting 18-27, 248yd, 1 TD, 0 INT. For the record, the top 5 defenses Mayfield faced with Oklahoma were all tougher than this, or even the 2nd toughest defense Rosen faced in BYU in 2016. I do agree that Oklahoma has had better talent, that shows in their consistency with placing near the top. Thing is though, after Dede Westbrook leaves in 2016 (along with Perine, Mixon, and Sterling Shepherd), Mayfield still improved in 2017 with lesser talent around him. Both Darnold and Rosen had better #1 WRs to throw to this year, and in Darnold's case, a better running game taking pressure off him too. I have a problem with the Oklahoma talent argument mainly for the reason that it doesn't give any credit to what Mayfield himself brought to that unit. If he had fallen apart after all those guys left in 2016 I'd say it was a better argument, but he continued to soar. When does he get credit? Why is it only Mayfield who benefitted from talent as opposed to making everyone around him better? In my opinion, this is a very thin narrative against Mayfield. Finally, footwork. It has been recognized as wonky, but it also has been recognized that his accuracy doesn't decrease at all when throwing off platform. It is very similar to the knock on Darnold's unusual throwing motion which still works. If it isn't broken, don't fix it. One of the reasons Mayfield is so successful playing outside of the pocket and out of structure is because he can make the throws without perfect footwork. He himself has identified it as an area to clean up, but it is by no means a death sentence for his career.
yes thank you that's the play. Wow is that every passing play from that whole game? The internet is amazing, no wonder everyone thinks they are an expert, something like that used to only be available to the scouts. also, its pretty messed up that he has a great game like that and the only thing people talk about is him dicking around with the OSU flag. give me a break
I think that particular instance shows us the fire Mayfield has. Mayfield and Oklahoma got absolutely walloped by Ohio State the year before. Mayfield clearly took it to heart and came out prepared and on fire when he got a chance at revenge. And boy did he deliver. The Jets have rarely had a player with that kind of spirit.
There's a lot of information out there, fans are formulating their opinions much more then in past eras. The only unfortunate is the All-22 isn't really available. If you think fans here are bad haha, you should check out the NFL_draft subreddit. They roughed up the Sooners the last time they played, so Baker was definitely motivated. I didn't care about the OSU flag thing at all, the one thing that bothered me about Baker was him throwing footballs at the TCU players prior to the game. I felt that was uncalled for.
