exactly, hard to take an article seriously when they confuse accuracy with completion %. QB throws a bomb 60 yard downfield, perfectly thrown ball under pressure. it's dropped 0% accuracy QB throws a ball behind the LOS on a screen, RB dives to saves it, scoops it up, follows the blocks for a 60 yard TD. 100% accurate and OMG YAC stats are a joke especially in college. here is a funny one 2017 josh mccown 67.3 % completions (was over 70 at a point and leading the NFL) Qbs below him in 2017 tom brady mattt stafford aaron rodgers matt ryan kirk cousins ben rothlisberger derek carr phillip rivers eli manning russel wilson carson wentz (was an MVP candidate and finished at 60.2 barely above the 60 mark) i count like 10 SBs 4-5 HOFers 11 probowlers all with a lower completion % then Mccown a career journeman QB/back-up. Are we really going to say they are worse then mccown over 1 stat? Eli manning is a career sub 60% passer and yet he won 2 SBs, made 4 pro bowls (somehow lol) and will likely be in the HOF people need to not fixate on 1 stat especially in college
I am comparing 2 QBs with bad supporting casts, and if they needed their game restricted. Lamar didn't have help the last 2 seasons and accounted for a large % of yards. I just never saw the growth in Allen's game I expected to see after his 3rd year. I was a fan then, I like him more then Mayfield, but still my expectations of him weren't met. Sometimes a QB makes those around him better. He was a play-maker indeed in his 3rd yr, but I didn't see the improvement in the pocket in terms of the short passing game. If the receivers couldn't get seperation, why did they continue to run a vertical offense? Why not add more short passing principles?
I don't know for certain, it's what I saw. But OTOH, how do YOU know? These are subjective interpretations. I'm pointing out what I see, if you see it otherwise, fine, we can agree to disagree. As to convincing you to like Mayfield by telling you what he's good at, myself, and others, have done just that, but you refuse to listen. I can't unplugged your ears or uncover your eyes.
here is the thing, and i'm replying to you because you are one of the more reasonable posters on the site even if i don't see eye to eye with you. The thing is all perception. What i mean by that is many of the "pro mayfield" people feel like they have made a solid case for mayfield and the "anti mayfield" crown just isn't listening, or is just stupid for not agreeing with it. Now i can't speak for all the people against taking mayfield 3rd overall, but i can speak for myself on why I feel none of the arguments made are strong enough 1) stats - the biggest argument i see is stats. his high completion %, YAC, etc etc. Counter point - college stats are meaningless and over time have proven to not transfer to the NFL. college is a whole different game then the NFL. Competition is up and down, stats get padded. most of the bets players leave college early and never can put up big career stats. All the college stat leaders have failed in the NFL. Not only that but mayfield runs an offense made to pad stats. easy throws to wide open targets most of the time (80% according to PFF) 2) He's a winner Counter point - again college is a different game. not only that but even at the NFL level you cna't pin a win or loss on a single player really. tom brady was perfect in the SB and still lost to a backup QB. Remember vince young? eveyrone threw him up draft boards becuase he won in the rose bowl and dominated that 1 game at the college level. tenn took him 3rd overall (i remember Jet fans wanting him too) and he was a bust. college wins don't equal NFL wins 3) he won a hiesman counter point - there is no relation to the hiesman leading to NFL sucess. many hiesman winners at QB were NFL busts, and the best QBs in the NFL now didn't win hiesmans. also lamaar jackson won it in 2016 over mayfield 4) his intangibles counter point - he ran from police and got tackled and arrested. He left texas tech and sat out a year because he felt having to earn the starting job in 2014 was unfair. he complained the whole 2013 season on why he wasn't put back in the starting line-up after he healed form an injury suffered in week 5 (IIRC) depsite the fact he was given the job due to injury. He transferred to a school with pretty much no competition at QB for him. Now onto the "anti mayfield" reasons 1) size only 2 Qbs of his height have been successful in modern day NFL at QB. 2) Spread offense he hasn't ran a pro offense and needs to learn it. there is no film of him running NFL style plays from under center 3) most of his throws were to wide open WRs (Per PFF 80%) NFL QBs have to consistently throw into tight windows and throw WRs open. mayfield hasn't shown enough of an ability to do that because he hasn't needed to really. 4) mobility he isn't mobile enough to transition it into the NFL. alot of his mobility will be neutralized in the NFL. the only QB in this class that can carry over their mobility to the NFL level is jackson. that takes away a large part of bakers game Now with that said, the other issue i see is the attitude of posters. The "anti-mayfield" crowd hasn't personally attacked the "pro-mayfield" crowd, however sadly the same cannot be said the other way around. I've had people "attack" me instead of attacking the argument. not only that but they instantly go to the "take allen's balls out of your mouth" despite the fact i'm not even high on allen and actively hoping the browns take him 1st overall. They think for some reason if you don't' love mayfield it's only because you are biased and love allen, but can't see the hypocrisy in it. Of course when you point out that you aren't a fan of allen either they ignore it but later on will throw that in your face again.
Why even argue it when nobody here has even the slightest bit of say in who the pick will be? Sit back, wait for the name to be called and then start an argument on why he will suck for the Jets as all QBs do since Namath..well maybe not O'Brien and Pennington to a lesser degree...and Favre if he had been able to stay around awhile longer.
I don't know. Never said I do. But I don't take what I want and work backwards creating a story to turn a strength into a weakened. That Allen has the ATM strength to fit passes into the tightest windows is now somehow being turned into a knock on him? Come on, that's pure nonsense, you're much better than that. There in no way that you can see that the throws were needed due to poor anticipation. All of the QBs have enough questions, especially Mayfield and Allen, we don't have to imagine issues that don't exist to help the case against them
rememeber when people were saying mayfields arm was as strong because he threw like 60mph at the combine and allen threw 61, and i was like it doens't show on film at all, then it came out he threw like a 58 or something and nobody said a word about it after? also apparently allen threw a 66mph ball at his pro day? http://www.stack.com/a/josh-allen-t...no-qb-at-the-nfl-combine-has-ever-exceeded-60 thats why i don't read much into stuff like that and workout warriors (like vernon gholston) i just watch the film and make my own judgements
Okay, in the same spirit, I'll respond to you. First, you absolve many Allen posters for their negative comments against the Mayfield crowd, often implying - or even saying directly - that they're too dumb to see past the stats. I agree that Mayfield supporters have been abusive too, just saying that the gate swings both ways. Personally I try to refrain from that stuff, and usually (not always) don't upvote a response I otherwise agree with if it contains an insult. Stats aren't "meaningless". That said, they aren't by any means the full picture. I still agree with Twain: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damnable lies, and statistics"". But they DO hold some information. Again though, as you said, trying to see beyond the many differences in styles of play, strength of competition, surrounding cast, etc. is almost impossible, but there is important info there to be had. But relying on stats only is a mistake. What I have tried to do is to watch as much tape as I can and to draw conclusions from that as best as I can. I'm not a pro or expert, and freely admit that my conclusions may be wrong, but I don't believe I'm completely off base, and hope that my POV is at least considered rather than rejected out of hand. Specifically, the 80% open looks you disparage, shouldn't be ignored completely. Yes, it is much easier to throw to an open receiver, BUT you also need to complete those "lay ups" when you get them. Mayfield does this better than anyone, and regarding Allen, he's among the worst at this, and this has been shown to be a negative indicator of pro success. Of course, Mayfield will almost never see as many open looks in the pros as he does now, but he also completed throws to contested receivers. I agree though that this an area we don't have enough hard evidence to KNOW for sure he can make these throws consistently. Based upon his overall accuracy/completion % I believe he can make these throws as needed. As to being a winner. I base this more on his ability to walk onto to two major college programs and win the job. That shows me massive self-confidence, which is a core characteristic of a winner. I agree that W/L records can't be attributed to one guy, even the QB, so I don't count that as heavily. As to the Heisman, I almost hold that against him - not really, but most Heisman QBs don't do very well in the pros. I don't count this as a big plus for Mayfield. The run in with the police is overblown. I agree it shouldn't be dismissed entirely, but are you really going to claim that all college athletes are choirboys? The main difference is that Mayfield was caught. The "anti-Mayfield reasons": Size - the difference in height between college players and pros is small, and he's learned how to adjust for that. I don't think this is a problem, especially since other pro QBs like Brees, et. al. have done this. Spread offense - He does have to learn to make drop backs, but he'll still take a lot of snaps from the SG. Whoever takes him will have to transition him into taking snaps under center. Definitely a learning curve. Mobility - I see him as much more mobile - and accurate on the run, keeping his eyes downfield, unlike Allen. Will he have to adjust to the faster speeds in the pros? Of course, so does any player. Not an issue that you can pin exclusively on Mayfield. Throws to open receivers - I already addressed this. But I'm still going to come back to the TAPEs on Allen as to where I get my negative impression of him. And let me point out that I have come to see the positives in him, and wouldn't kill myself if the Jets take him, but I will definitely be disappointed, and be holding my breath until I see him actually produce at the pros, and proving his 56% completion rate wasn't his own fault.
It's you who are over-emphasizing his arm strength as an undeniable asset, when in actuality it cuts both ways. I'm honest enough to admit that I don't know for sure because I wasn't at the games, and I'm not an expert, but if you're honest you can see where he makes throws late, when if he hadn't waited - presumably because he believes he can gun the ball at the last second - he would've had easier windows. If you don't see that, I don't know what to tell you. I'm not making it up because others have noted the same thing, in articles and videos you've refused to look at. Yes, they all have issues, and I'm trying to remain objective, but I don't see that same effort from you.
I don't absolve anyone from shitty behavior. Maybe i just didn't notice it enough since i was on the other side of constant shit flung at me, despite not doing anything to deserve it. If the "anti-mayfield" crowd is being that bad, then i apologize for that and I want to make it abundantly clear my stance on this. we are all adults, we are all jet fans, there is no need for anyone to be shitty towards each other for any reason here. people need to act their age not their show size regardless of which prospects we like hence why i said you were one of the more reasonable people here. I'm not going to shit on anyone for having an opinion. I've probably said this at least a dozen times here "we are all assholes just taking our best guesses including posters here (myself included), scouts, GMs, and experts" The problem i have with relying on pure stats, is historically they don't translate from college to the NFL. Even at the NFL level they are misleading. a WCO produces a much higher completion % for QBs. Qbs that play in a dome have a much easier time throwing the ball. Playing in GB in december is not comparable to playing in NO in december in a dome. I do think that really low stats should raise a red flag, but high stats shouldn't be regarded highly. Case in point, barkely is 28th in the NCAA in rushing with 1271 yards yes regarded as the best RB (and best player) in this draft. I said mayfield was good at completing the easy throws most of the time. the thing is i see the "pro mayfield" crowd say allen can't (like you did above), meanwhile i see allen also completing most of the easy throws as well, including one's mayfield struggles with. Allen just had a lot less easy throws then mayfield did. I'd be interested in seeing how many "easy throws" the top QBs had I think it helps paint a picture of adjusted stats. the problem is, that is a false statement people have been making around here. He walked on in 2013 but only made the team. he was a projected 3rd string QB. he didn't win the competition. The starter got hurt, and the backup due to an illness lost 40lbs before the season. Mayfield was handed the job due to injury not winning a competition. On top of that, when mayfield got injured (week 5ish), webb took over at QB and started the rest of the year. Mayfield complained the whole season that he should have been back in because he was healthy. After that instead of staying and competing for the starting job in 2014, he transferred out because he felt the "competition wasn't fair" and that he earned the starting job and shouldn't have had to compete for it. due to that, he had to sit out the 2014 season. in 2015 he won a the starting job over a QB who wans't good enough to be drafted in the NFL and is currently on a practice squad. The truth paints a completely different picture then the narrative that is going on around here. Funny enough, nobody has acknowledged that even though i've said it like 5 times here, it's been ignored while people praise him for being a walk on and winning twice. I'll buy that for sure. He was being a drunk idiot kid. he's not the 1st and wont' be the last. we all did stupid shit when we were his age. But he's continually showed a lack of maturity time and time again. it wans't a one off thing. this is a good article from january https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2018/01/02/baker-mayfield-troll-oklahoma-georgia-hot-clicks In the pregame for the title he carried a sign that said pretenders. Then in warm ups he annoyed the WR group of the other team instead of focusing on his team and warming up. not to mention the throat slash gesture after a missed FG. this article https://www.dawgnation.com/football/watch-georgia-players-get-annoyed-baker-mayfields-pregame-antics shows his immaturity prior to that game he pegged an apposing player in the head on purpose during warm ups before one game, when going against his old school he ran out on because he didn't want to compete he wore a shirt that said "traitor" to the game. and of course he had the famous crotch grab. he just has too many "antics" and too much immaturity to praise his intangibles.
less then 10% of NFL starters. it's just brees and wilson. nobody else which makes him scary to take so high. mind you if he was a 2nd or 3rd round project QB (like petty or hack) where the stakes were lower, i wouldn't mind. again you say unlike allen, but all the film i watch is allen keeping his eyes downfield when running, mayfield does it good too, but doens't complete many of those passes where allen does. There is no reason to slight allen to pump up mayfield. especially since i'd much rather have rosen or darnold. The thing with other QBs in the draft, is they are much more "pocket" QBs (allen, rosen, darnold) who will stand tall in the pocket. Mayfield bails out of plays and makes plays with his legs, which he can do at the college level, but not at the NFL level. he doens't have the speed or size. NFL Lbers will lay him out. I agree Allen has a lot to work on as well. this is why i said I don't' like allen, jackson or mayfield as the 3rd pick. they simply aren't good enough on film to justify it. even rosen isn't worthy of a top 3 pick on film but at least rosen loks like a top 10 pick and with our need it's not a terrible reach. Allen, mayfield, and jackson would all be a huge reach at 3 overall. Rosen a minor reach that I personally wouldn't mind. Darnold is really the only QB in the draft worthy of a top 3 pick, but he likely won't be an option. That's why i'm hoping for the browns to take allen which guarantees us rosen or darnold. If rosen and danrold go 1 and 2 though, we will have no choice but to use a masive reach, and if we are going to reach, I think allen has a much better chance then mayfield to be a good NFL QB. At least i've seen allen do things successfully that an NFL QB has to do. I haven't seen that from mayfield not fully his fault but just the lack of film on him making NFL QB throws is concerning. In the same sense, i'm not going to shit on anyone who would prefer mayfield over allen. Both have a ton of work to do to make it in the NFL. darnold has quite a bit too. the only QB in this draft with not a lot to work on at the NFL level is rosen.
read the forums it was in one of the threads. just because you didn't see it, doens't mean it didn't happen.
I think one of the issues, some have with Mayfield is you look at his skill-sets, which skill-set is he absolutely better then all of the QBs in? I don't think he's elite in any traits. Arm Strength? Nope ... Josh Allen, Lamar have way better arms Accuracy? Unfortunately no, I would say Rosen and Darnold are more accurate and can make any throw in the book consistently. Football IQ? Nope, Rosen is heads above the rest Fundamentals? Nope, Rosen is a better pure passer, and Darnold is far better in the pocket. Size? Lol I just look at his traits, and nothing stands out in comparison to the other QBs. Yeah, he rah rahs a lot, and that seems to really make the fans here happy, but thats not enough to win in the NFL.
I can believe there was a thread as there’s a lot of Baker hate, but I don’t see anywhere that this is legitimately being reported.
it wasn't. someone had posted saying in one of the threads he trhew 50mph and allen threw 61 so his arm is almost as strong and was bragging about it. then the final results came out and it was like 58ish. rosen, darndold, and mayfield were all pretty similar but allen had a nice lead over them all. then nobody mentioned it anymore. it would probably take hours to find though. it's burried in one of the threads
That’s one way of looking at it, but that’s just your perception. Here’s another way to look at: Arm strength - 2nd - threw 2nd hardest at combine. Accuracy - 1st - rated best in college according to metrics (NFL throws, under pressure, on the move, you name it, he’s #1) Football IQ - 1st - tested highest per new NFL IQ test. Fundamentals - 1st - This is totally perception + instead of yours, I’ll go with Pennington who says Baker is the purest passer in this class. Since Bakers a qb, I guess that’s the #1 fundamental needed. Size - 4th - but statistically not as relevant as much as people think at least when you look at statistics (winning percentage, qbr, etc.).
