He never had a problem with screens and short passes IMO. That's just a false narrative perpetuated by a couple of gifs circulating the internet compounded with Jets fans having Hack-a-fobia. As I stated before the Wyoming offense didn't incorporate a lot of screens or short passes to come to that conclusion. I maintain while he is not as inaccurate as his CMP%. He throws off platform a lot because of pressure; often times he is also throwing heat into tight windows because of lack of WR separation. In those instances he is inaccurate. Few have that ability. Rodgers is the king of this, Big Ben at times can do it and my man Mahomes displayed it in college; we'll see if he can do it in the pros. When Allen is in rhythm he displays good accuracy, anticipation and ball placement. With regards to the lack of vision and tendency to bail. Most QBs start to develop certain habits under "constant" and "immediate" pressure. Guys that have the ability to run fall back on that. I did find it amusing where he wrote Allen dealt with pressure well in certain instances but not so much when it was immediate. Who doesn't have problems with immediate pressure? Isn't that the scouting report on Brady, who is the gold standard of QBs. You get immediate pressure in his face force him to move from his spot and he becomes mortal. This book on Brady is in part why we've drafted so many interior linemen first round the past few years. No doubt the other top guys in this draft have shown the ability to handle pressure better but they're looking at their tape I didn't see the kind of repeated and immediate pressure Allen endured. Not all WCOs are the same. Since Bates is from the Shanahan tree I presume this is what we would be running. This offense is the best fit for Allen as there are a ton of on the move throws. Mayfield, if he masters the footwork, can probably play in any version of the WCO. Rosen is such a pure pocket passer I don't think Bates would be able to call on the entire Shanahan playbook.
Thanks! Lots of good points, as usual. Why oh why didn't Macc take Mahomes last year? I would really like to know the answer to that, especially given he had to know the shit pile we had for QBs.
Totally in agreement with the first paragraph. Rhythm as in being able to get to the top of of a 3-5-7 steps drop, plant and deliver the ball on time.
Amen. Many of us in the draft forum going against the grain pounding the table for the kid last offseason.The jets reportedly had interest & you'd like to think Mac had the inside scoop given TX is his old scouting stomping ground. I think it boils down to the following... 1. Value- No one really knew what the right value was for Mahomes given his unique profile. Both he & Watson were in Murky waters in terms of where they should've gone. 2. Air raid QB/BIG 12 QB- Maybe after the Petty Experiment Mac was apprehensive to pull the trigger yet again. 3. Mahomes needed a year- There was no way Mahomes was going to play year 1 w.o going through major major growing pains which frankly he might not have ever recovered from playing in NY. His foot work was literally non existent, took very few snaps under center & needed work on going through progressions. W. Hack & Petty both rotting on the bench already..and given what we know now about how unfit they were to get on the field...Wasn't a good look to bring in another project 4. They prioritized defense- As usual. Bowles wasn't gonna let the embarrassment that was the safety play from 2016 be a repeat.They prioritized a stronger position group & safer picks.
Yeah..that's all i was saying. If they are dead set on running the shanahan style WCO than Darnold & Allen are the best fits b.c they have the size & athleticism to make throws on the run & still hold up. Rosen & Mayfield are more traditional WCO QB's..which is totally fine. I'm just concerned about square peg round hole.. As for Allen improving against better competition..you'd like to think that his surrounding cast/scheme will be much better than it was in college so that he & his offense are not physically overmatched every single week like he often was. Stiff competition is one thing...being completely overmatched is another. OL that can pass protect, receivers that can get open & a running game to protect him could go a long long way. A good OC will identify the types of throws/reads/progressions he struggles w. & either improve those aspects or minimize them within the scheme.Vice versa as well...the reads/progressions/throws he does well will be maximized. I understand this is purely speculation & there is no guarantee he'll get better in this regard...but it's certainly plausible.
Another thing I thought of: Mahomes grew up in warm weather and played in fairly warm weather in college, so maybe Macc didn't think he could acclimate? If that's true - and I don't know that it is - then it would argue that Macc would stay away from Rosen and Darnold.
If Allen is off the Board before the Jets pick I will breath a sigh of relief..but I don't think it will go that way
Kurt, imo you're mistaken about Darnold being a better fit than Mayfield for our version of the WCO. Mayfield had the best QBR and completion percentage by far when throwing on the run on bootlegs and rollouts. On play action plays, Mayfield's QBR/Passer rating is 154.3, Darnold is 113.7, and Allen is 108.6.
My concern w. Mayfield in our version of the WCO isn't his ability to throw on the run. It's his ability to hold up physically from all the hits he will take out of the pocket.See RGIII.Darnold & Allen are better built to endure that while also being more of a threat to the defense as ball carriers....especially in Allen's case. This causes defenses to be a little more cautious within both their scheme & pursuit.
Mayfield also has to prove that he can operate at 6' in the NFL with defensive linemen and offensive linemen being bigger than they are in college. This is no trivial thing because Mayfield is going to have to find lines of sight in a sea of giants, maybe for the first time in his life. There's a reason that tall QB's are the rule in the NFL.
I'm not concerned about Mayfield's ability to take hits. He's solidly build and not thin like Rosen. He's quick and elusive, he can get rid of the ball quickly, and is better than Darnold at extending plays. He didn't get acknowledge as being better than Darnold by taking a lot of sacks. If anything Darnold is likely to get killed because of the hitch in his throwing motion makes him slower in getting the ball out. Mayfield has a quick release.
I know that tall QBs are the rule in the NFL, and that Mayfield will have to make some adjustments due to the greater height of DL, OL and LBs. He has the arm, accuracy and touch to do that. Brees and Wilson don't have many problems with that and as smart as Mayfield is, I don't expect him to have many problems with that.
This is a question for legler and Kurt, but anyone is free to chime in, and maybe it should be a separate thread, but anyway, both you guys say that Allen is a great fit for the WCO the Jets seem to want to use. In that light, here's a basic definition of the WCO and how it began (and apologies for referencing a Miami Dolphins website): https://www.thephinsider.com/2014/2/13/5406774/football-101-what-is-a-west-coast-offense The key part that jumped out at me: "The keys to the West Coast Offense are still apparent today, just as they were under Walsh in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s. Teams running a WCO-based system will look to spread a defense horizontally across the field, typically inside 15 yards from the line of scrimmage, before attempting longer passes in the open lanes caused by the defensive adjustments to the shorter, wider passes. The receiving routes will be dominated by slants, crossing routes, comebacks, and flat passes. The offense will look to control the ball through the short passing game, using the pass to set up the run, rather than run to set up the pass, and they will throw the ball in any down-and-distance situation. Key Player Types Typical players in a WCO are: Quarterback: Mobile, accurate passer who makes good decisions. Does not have to have the strongest arm, since short passes are the key." Given Allen's struggles with accuracy, and the fact that the WCO as originally designed did NOT rely on a strong armed QB, why do you think he would be a good fit? It seems to me that of the top 4, Mayfield would be the more natural fit, and that Rosen, while more a pure pocket passer, with his excellent accuracy would be a good fit too. You seem to be banking on Allen being able to really improve his accuracy, and speed up his slow reading of defenses, which to me aren't a given. Anyway, I respect your guys's opinions and was wondering what you think of this.
