without the trades it would have been 1 Spence 2 Ifedi 3 Cravens, if still on the board, Vonn Bell if Cravens was gone. 4 Scooby Wright 5 Hackenberg if still on the board otherwise Green. 7 Hackett if still on the board, otherwise Moreau.
I guess my question would be "why get a fourth OLB (Maudlin, Pace, Spense) with your third round pick?" If you move him back to ss he's a backup behind Pryor. You passed up some rock star running backs to get a back up. Even when Pace is gone is '17 he'll still be a back up.
Mauldin still hasn't established himself one way or the other, Pace is old, very old in football terms, Spence filler IMHO. IMHO Cravens has a chance to be a special kind of player. When I talk about him being able to play safety I'm not talking about making him a safety, I'm talking about everything he can do from the LB position, line him up as a LB and drop him in to coverage, rush the passer, use him to set an edge, move him inside, all without changing personnel on the field which helps camouflage what the defense is doing. Bowles defense doesn't operate in a traditional sense, you need to look at players in a non traditional sense as well, especially on Defense.
woops, sorry I got my wires crossed and was thinking something different...I was talking to someone else about something and got my topics confused for a minute. My bad, but regarding Mauldin and Pace that remains the same. I need to proof read more lol. but the other points, after re-reading, remain valid. worst case scenario as a third round pick he provides depth to a very thin LB corps, best case he becomes like a Troy P (unlikely, HOF type players are rare after all) most likely somewhere between those two points.
Don't get me wrong, I've heard good things about Su'a and he could definitely add speed but especially with you taking Spence in the first round and Pryor getting better every year, I think that third pick is better spent on a running back. Don't forget; we put Pryor at free safety with not good results. If you would've taken Elliot in he first then I'm on board with an OLB in the third. The bottom line is in Mac I trust. If he drafted the way you did I'd assume he had a plan and I'd be ok with how the chips fell (minus the trade of the 2017 second rounder).
Again, you're missing the point of flexibility and quite frankly you can always pick up a bruising running back later in the draft. After the top 2 RB's in the draft there are none that I'm in love with. Better to build the defense and the flexibility than take a RB 2nd rate RB just because of 'Need'. RB's are important and I like Green late in the draft (an RB if you'll note), he's not a bruiser between the tackles but he's a guy who can be electric in space. to me Sua is a no brainer and you have to stop thinking in linear terms sometimes. Again, A variable defense that shifts and is flexible keeps an offense guessing, and with the rules so heavily slanted towards the offense keeping a fog up is sometimes more important than just about anything else.
Regarding taking Elliot in the first, unless it's the last piece needed I'm never ever in favor of taking an RB in the first, same with guards. RB's just have too short of a shelf life in the NFL and even good ones in college never adjust to the speed of the NFL. Just not worth a 1st round pick.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a guy that took OL with 3 of his first 4 picks in his first mock would think it's a good idea to have 4 starting OLBs and not draft a running back (except as a back up plan in the 5th).
Oline is the heart of an offense. If you're going to have a young QB, and at some point we well have a young QB, you want him behind a very good, and preferably young, O-line to protect him. I shouldn't be surprised that someone that want's a RB in the first wouldn't think that's a good idea. Which when you think about it a RB needs a good O-Line to run behind, unless he's Barry Sanders. Difference an O-line makes? Look at one DeMarco Murray, goes to a shit offensive line in Philly and basically disappears until the O-line started to get healthy. Yes you can lay some of that on Kelly I guess, but fact remains you can look at RB's all over that move from team to team. Hell, Look at Green with the Jets, when the O-line was top form he was an above average RB, when the O-line started to go downhill he became a subpar RB. As far as taking a 4th LB, I'm not sold on Mauldin, he's got promise but at this point that's all it is. Cravens, if drafted, would come in and compete from day one for a starting LB job...Period. If it was some jack that had was a questionable talent then yes, wasted in the 3rd, maybe. But the Jets LB corp currently ranks as one of the worst in the league. Period.
1. I didn't say they should draft a RB in the first. I said I'd get on board with them drafting OL in the 2nd OLB in the 3rd and ILB in the 4th if they took a RB in the 1st as opposed to not at all. 2. LBs ranked one of the worst? Yeah probably. 3. Our offensive line shit? Our run game was 10th in the league so it couldn't be that bad. Will we have Brick and Mangold protecting our young QB in a couple years? Of course not but Mac has stated that he thinks OLs from mid rounds can be developed and Chan has proven that he can coach up an OL. 4. You passed up both Perkins and Booker in the 3rd to get Cravens and you take A QB in the 5th if he's available. We have very little in cap resources so I gotta know. Who's running the rock for you? You've got Stacey and....
Based on your Rd 4 and 5 picks , Id take Hackett in the 4th lol. Cravens in the 3rd would be amazing value but I dont see him lasting that far. Early 3rd IMO but ya never know. To me Hackenberg is a wasted pick no matter where he lands. Nothing special about him. IDK much about Ifedi but he sounds like a project. Vlad Duccase 2.0?
point 4. Green, change to a more fluid spread offense. Point 3- Yes the ground game ranked 10th in yards, it ranked 10th in attempts and it ranked 15th in yards per attempt. That had more to do with who was the RB rather than who was on the O-Line. PFF which ranks O-lines based on how well they block, the number penalties committed, sacks, hurries allowed, as well as yards before first contact on running plays. Objective and respected site, PFF ranked the Jets #26 in terms of performance. Couple that with the fact that the O-Line is, overall, getting old then it's time to start rebreeding the line. Point 1, that is in effect saying draft a RB in the first round.
Ifedi was considered a first round prospect coming in to the past college season and combine. This past season several players moved ahead of him. Unlike Ducasse who was a fast riser (and most considered to be an overdraft) who didn't have a lot of football experience Ifeldi is an experienced player. His worst case scenario is as a RG where as Ducasses's best scenario was as a RT and probable guard. I think Cravens might slip to the third, but he's unlikely to be there at #20, but it's a very deep defensive draft so you never know. Hackenberg if he had better pocket awareness would be an easy 2nd round pick, possible first. He's got an arm and he's worth taking a flier on as a developmental player at a point in the draft where you're usually drafting special teams players or developmental players anyway.
You didn't pick Green. You picked Hackenberg. Point 1. I would pick a RB in the third instead of none at all. So the run game has to do with who your running back is and you want to go from 6' 220# Ivory to 5'10 203# Green? (If Hackenberg is gone otherwise we don't pick any rb) BTW re Green on NFL.com WEAKNESSES Plays like a 180 pound running back. Runs with very little power in his legs and is unable to break tackles or right the ship and stay upright when his feet get caught in the trash near the line of scrimmage. Not a willing runner between the tackles and goes out of his way to try and break it outside whenever he can. Hesitant through the hole. Feet come to sudden stop when contact is imminent. Loses balance at times when making sharp cuts. Not trustworthy in blitz protection. Appears to run out of apprehension over desire.
Good info on Ifedi. Def a difference with Duccasse if thats how his college career played out. When it comes to the oline early I like to go with an established guy who has a hand on the position. As for the QB spots , Hackenberg makes way too many bad decisions for me to think he'll be anything better than an average backup. I think in this draft a QB is a wasted pick no matter where it falls. Now based on averages there will probably be 1 or 2 guys that make an impact , but I just dont know where it'll come from. Wentz or Goff as potential number 2 overall picks is insane IMO. Mid round guys like Hack and Prescott and even Lynch dont really strike me as QB's that could even be developed. I think if we had more than 6 picks I could get behind the idea of one of em, preferably Cook if he's there in the 3rd. But with limited selections its hard to sell me on another project QB.
problem is if you want an 'established' LT in the draft it'll have to be in the first round and by the time it gets down to #20 it's likely that that 'sure bets' will be off the board at that point. Ifeldi is at worst a RT, which the team needs anyway, and late in the 2nd is a good time to pick up a 'sure thing' RT that has a good shot at moving to LT down the road. Now if one of the top 3 LT's drops to 20 that changes everything imho, but I doubt any of those 3 get out of the top 10 or 15. here's where we're going to have to agree to disagree. I think there are only 3 or 4 QB's in the draft that are worthy of higher than a 4th round pick in reality, this QB draft is just really barren of reasonable prospects. I'd rather take the 'average backup' in Hackenberg in the 5th than a probable backup in the 3rd or 4th. This draft is very deep on the defensive side of the ball in the middle of the draft, I refuse to use a 2nd, 3rd or 4th round pick on any of the QB's expected to get go after the first round. there's just far too much value on the defensive side of the ball in depth this year, one of the reasons Cravens could slide to the 3rd, there's just really good DL in LB depth in this draft and a number of those guys are more 'traditional' LB's than Cravens which could cause him to drop some. Now if one of the top 3 QB's in the draft somehow fell to the Jets pick in the 2nd? absolutely, but short of that this QB class could be as bad as, or worse, than the 2009 draft at the QB position.
Pretty much, if you read what I said the offense with green would have to shift to a more open offense focusing outside of the tackles. He's an open space type RB who's good after the catch, something invaluable in todays games. Bruisers to run up the middle you can always grab off the free agent pile after the draft, and with a good O-Line that would probably be sufficient running a more open offense. In today's game RB's are just so devalued because of short shelf life and you really can find good starting RB's off the free agent pile after the draft. Case in point, Chris Ivory was a UDFA, L. Murray (the #6 rusher in the NFL) was drafted in the 6th, the #7 rusher was Devonte Freeman drafted late in the 4th, So 30% of the top 10 RB's in 2015 were 4th round or later... Offensive line is a greater concern overall as is improving the LB corp, both sets of which tend to have much longer and useful careers than RB's.
But you didn't pick Green. You picked Hakenberg. Edit: I never saw your redraft on page 1. I've been basing this whole conversation on your "without trades" post. Fan speak isn't the only site that doesn't value green. Nfl.com has him at 25. ESPN has him at 22. Nfldraftscout.com likes him the best paring him as the 17th best RB in the draft. I can't find any site that likes Green. The firm consensus is that he's not a 3 down back.
Hence why I feel confident in being able to get him late in the draft. As I've stated you can pick up good RB's off the UDFA pile every years, some will be very good, some will be busts. But the reality of football today is that the RB position is so undervalued that you have quality RB's that go undrafted every year. Part of the problem is judging who will and who won't be good in the NFL as the college run game really doesn't translate well in to the NFL and it can be hard to tell who will be a stud and who will be a dud. There are usually 1 or 2 guys in every draft that you can look at and say he will be a stud and be very confident you'll be correct, but past that you're about as likely to find a stud in the UDFA as you are in the draft. CBS sports.... Negatives: Doesn't have great size or the compact strength of elite backs. Must prove he can get the tough yard and not dance to try and break a big play when it's not there. Invites turnovers by running with the ball very loosely. Doesn't always switch the ball to the outside hand. Runs out of control at times. Some of those cutbacks will not work against the speed of NFL defenses. A liability in pass protection, throwing a shoulder instead of moving his feet to take on or even just get in the way of a rusher. Whiffs on his cut blocks against blitzing linebackers. ooops, sorry, that's LeSean McCoy. .WEAKNESSES: Lacks an ideal build for the position and his frame doesn't have the growth potential to get much bigger. Runs with minimal power and is limited as an inside runner. Tunnel vision at times and gets bounce happy, dancing and taking too many steps in the backfield. Needs to take what is blocked for him instead of trying to create on his own. Bad habit of stopping his feet and won't pick up yards after initial contact, too easily taken down by finger-tip tackles. Doesn't have elite downfield speed and can be caught from behind. as far as 3 down backs go, there is no such thing in the NFL anymore outside of one or two players. in 2015 the highest snap count of any RB was Devanote Freeman at 67% of offensive snaps and only 6 RB's that even managed 60% of offensive snaps. only 15 RB's even managed 51% or more of offensive snaps., 16 if you include Danny Woodhead at 50.9%. Hell, Ivory only managed 48% of offensive snaps in his best season. and that's offensive snaps, not defensive snaps, not special teams snaps, just offensive snaps.....the three down back is a myth in today's football, less than half of the NFL's starting RB's are even 50% snap guys. Today's NFL RB's are specialists who run in running back by committee.
