It looks like semantics is at the heart of our disagreement, and we probably won't get anywhere, but I'm going to take one more stab at this. IMO there's more than one way to rebuild. One doesn't have to choose to just stick with young players and rookies and let them take their lumps. One can bring in vets to help the team play better (which appeases the fans) and to mentor the younger players. In the Jets' case, they HAD to bring in a bunch of new players. They had to spend the money against the cap. Oh, I suppose they could have re-signed Mo to a ridiculous contract paying him more than Watt, and given big raises to several of their players, but I'm not sure about that. As part of the rule, they may have had to bring in new players. If they're bringing in new players and have to spend a certain amount, then just bringing in young FAs who are cheap and probably not that good wouldn't help improve the team. The only way the Jets could spend the money they had to spend and improve the team was by signing veteran FAs who had been starters or who could compete for starting jobs. Thus, the Jets couldn't have solely gone the "young players and take your lumps" route. They had to bring in veteran players. IMO a "retooling" is when a team is already good and competitive, but needs to replace a few pieces or hopefully add some or the final pieces to the puzzle to help them get over the top. A retool indicates that your team is pretty much set, and one is just going to do some minor tinkering/upgrading. A "rebuild" is when one doesn't have that foundation, there's little or nothing to build upon, and one has to tear it down and start over. Going into this season, the only core or foundation players the Jets had were Mangold, Brick, Decker, Ivory, Mo, Richardson, Snacks and Harris. One possibly could count Marcus Williams and Pryor. Without any skill position players on either unit, one can't consider that they were "retooling." The Jets were having to almost totally rebuild both units. The OL was a HUGE question mark outside of Mangold and Brick. Decker and Ivory were the only quality "skill" position players they knew they had. Powell was nice depth, but I don't think he could have been considered a core player or foundation piece. QB was a huge question mark as was WR and TE. On D, the DL was set and in great shape, but that's it. The LBs, the heart of any D, were almost all older, slow and/or not very good. The secondary was a disaster. Pryor had potential, but really struggled playing the wrong position last season. Marcus Williams had looked good last season, but could hardly be considered a set starter for this season. The Jets were not good or competitive last year, or for the last several years for that matter. When the team has little or no depth and has MAJOR holes at key positions in the starting lineup, there's no way one can reasonably call that a "retool" A "retool" doesn't involve turning over at least half your roster, and that's what the Jets are in the midst of doing. Look at how many new players the Jets had this past season (at least 26 by my count, and if one counts Dozier and/or Enunwa, I think that's 28). The new players are Dion Bailey, Stephen Bowen, Randy Bullock, James Carpenter, Antonio Cromartie, Kellen Davis, Marcus Gilchrist, Erin Henderson, Wesley Johnson, Jamari Lattimore, Brandon Marshall, Josh Martin, Ronald Martin, Lorenzo Mauldin, Rontez Miles, Bryce Petty, Brent Qvale, Darrell Revis, Stevan Ridley, Buster Skrine, Devin Smith, Kenbrell Thompkins, Leonard Williams, Mike Catapano, Chris Owusu, and Zac Stacy. Even if one discounts Bailey, Bullock, both Martins, Miles and Thompkins, and Catapano because they were injury replacements, that's still 19-21 new players that were intentional changes. That's not a "retool," that's a major overhaul. Next year there will be even more new players added to the roster, possibly as many as 8-9. That would mean over half the roster had been changed in 2 years. With that being the case, how can you consider that a "retool"? How can it be anything other than a "rebuild"? I think the Jets have 6 draft picks this season, but may only have 5. Whatever the case, I expect them to release some of the players who have been underperforming/overpaid or who were injury replacements (Winters, Colon, Dozier, Kerley, Bailey, Bowen, Bullock, Cromartie, Davis, Giacomini, Ijalana, Harrison, Johnson, one or both Martins, McDougle, Milliner, Pace, Quigley, Qvale, Ridley, Geno Smith, Zac Stacy; Jarrett, Owusu, Sudfeld, and possibly even Allen or Brick could be gone); sign several FAs (although they won't be big players like last season) if they don't re-sign Mo, and even if they do, with possibly restructuring Brick's contract or making him take a pay cut, I expect them to add at least one or two FAs; and I expect that most of the draft picks will make the roster since I think they still have all their first 4 round picks. There may even be a trade (Mo or Sheldon). I just don't see how you or anyone can possibly consider a total roster makeover a "retool," but if that floats your boat, have at it and enjoy. If nothing else, as a long-time Jets fan you're entitled. We're probably all more than a little crazy, or we wouldn't have been following this team for so long.
Excellent post. With the needs we had at QB, WR and OLB, how we came out of that draft without any of the three is mind boggling. This is especially true of the QB and WR positions. As you said, there were two excellent QB prospects in Bridgewater and Carr. It was supposedly a historically great draft for WRs and there were a ton of them that were excellent, yet we came away with the dregs. I'm not usually in favor of trading up in the first round, but to get your QB is one time where I think one could, and perhaps should. Another time when it's acceptable (imo) to trade up in the first round is when you have extra picks. Now some of the picks that year couldn't be traded, but still, the Jets could have easily come away with either Bridgewater or Carr. The really crazy thing is that they could have gotten either Bridgewater or Carr without trading up. They could have stayed put, or even traded down and still gotten one of them. Some posters have posited that there's no way Idzik would have been looking to take a QB after having taken Geno the year before, and perhaps that's true, but he should have been with the value that QBs have and the question marks surrounding Geno. Even if he didn't want a QB, there's no excuse for not coming away with one of the stud WRs. He could have possibly traded up and gotten Beckam, Jr. or Mike Evans. He could have stayed put and taken Brandin Cooks who would have been the deep receiver we needed, or possibly traded down and still gotten Benjamin, Matthews, Robinson, Landry, Lee or Adams. If he had wanted to upgrade our old, slow LB corps, he could have possibly traded up for Mack. How in the world he came out of that draft with as little as he did took "special" talent.
I agree that he's not crazy, unless we all are for being Jets fans in the first place. Even if he were, he'd have a legitimate excuse. This team has driven us all nuts over the years.
We went with Amaro in the 2nd which I wasn't 100% against, only wished the guy could block a bit better. Other than the George pick which I talked about already. The Shaq Evans pick over Matavis Bryant was beyond annoying at the time and 150% in hindsight. The guy was a 6'4 guy with some speed and what most folks thought was a good shot at producing. Instead Idzick went digging again for a player like a frigging doof. If anything we should have taken Bryant AND THEN Evans instead of Saunders(ugh) and a project.
Tell me about it. No idea what the hell his motivation was but he managed to scuttle his chances at being a GM ever again in a single season.
your right not every pick will hit I understand that. then please explain why only 25% of his picks hit then. That is in excusable for a rebuild thru the draft. You have to have player stick at a much higher rate closer to 50 or even 60% if you are not spending money. Can you say half his picks are good solid contributors to this team. Outside of Pryor this yr and Richardson you have start thinking and digging. Amaro out, Mcdougle and Milner can't see the field. Geno anyone? How many oline and receivers cut. So the reason why Idzick lost his job was because he sucks at evaluating talent and then compounding it by not spending money to correct his questionable draft.
Everybody bashing Idzik's choices as GM.. trust me i do too... BUT i think we kind of overlooking things because we sucked. We hate Idzik for the things he DIDN'T DO... i'm actually not too mad about the things he did do. Drafted Sheldon, Pryor, Amaro, McDougle, Geno ( i'm really not in the mood for it today.. please save your hatred), and thats about it... I know its early but who in this draft did we sign that looks promising besides Williams and Mauldin? if Petty doesn't pan out i might have to call this draft overrated by us. Mac used his picks to bring in Marshall and Fitz, kudos for that brilliance.. but the actual draft pick are ehhhhhhh Notable Idzik pick-ups (still here): - Willie Colon (good for us, sometimes) - CJ2k... clearly misused.. ask the cardinals. - Eric Decker ...came cheap for who he is and is capable of... Idzik played this contract very well. Yall said he was overpaid but 7M per for DECKER is a steal. Maclin gets 11M per. -Rontez Miles - plugged in the rotation and we been balling ever since. - Marcus Williams - our future stud at CB. Chris Ivory - goes without being explained. Owusu - everybody had faith in Owusu.. he's good. Can't even lie. just gotta stay healthy. - Douzable has been well in rotation on the d-line no complaints there. - Trevor Reilly... i personally like the kid, others may not or just may not see him as a factor but i like his work. This post isn't to praise Idzik but to lift some of the blame off of him. We were poorly coached in 2014 the talent was there. Injuries also plauged us.
There is really only one way to rebuild, there really isn't any semantics involved. When you give up draft picks to trade for veterans and spend tons of money on veterans then you are not rebuilding. When you rebuild you try to accumulate draft picks and primarily build your team with young players and low risk high reward players, with the occasional cheap veteran sprinkled in to provide a vet presence in the locker room. What we did was simply forego the rebuild in order to be competitive now. This strategy can pay off if we draft well, and the benefit is that some guys can sit and develop without being asked to do too much early on. A retooling isn't limited to just good teams, the Giants for example has been retooling for the past 4 years and they're not a good team.
Guy, you may not be in the mood for it, but you can't make a post like this and not expect some backlash. Did Idzik make some good FA pickups and draft a couple of good players? Yes. Even a blind man can hit the target every once in a while. Your comment about Miles is just laughable. He still would have been on the PS if it weren't for injuries this season. He is no difference maker. What's Reilly done? I liked the pick at the time because of his story and he was an OLB, but I don't see that he's made that much of a contribution to the team. As for the drafted players you mentioned on Sheldon and Pryor deserve any kudos. McDougle looks more and more like a wasted pick as does Geno and possibly even Amaro. I never wanted Amaro. I would have taken just about any other TE in the draft other than Amaro.
douz, miles and williams count as coaching positives. I'll give Rex some credit there. CJ1k wants to be a feature back and was bad choice to back up Ivory. Can't argue with the Ivory and Decker moves. The real problem is that Idzick operated with an agenda that underminded the organization. You can't not look at the entirety of last offseason and not think something was off. Rex thought he was out to get him, which is a distinct possibility. My feeling is that behind a bland exterior Idzick had designs on becoming a 'hidden talent' guru or something.
I said i wasn't in the mood for the 5,000th Geno debate...i'm really over it. I feel he was used wrong under Rex and he will never meet his potential with this team... that's my story i'm sticking to it. Whoever don't like that then just agree to disagree. Rontez Miles is laughable? Really? He's had high praise since the day he got here by all coaches players and fans.. I know you don't watch many games but he really is a good safety ... just ask around. shit no rontez miles and who knows if that Eli pass gets picked off in the redzone? He's a solid player all-around not sure how to convince you if you aren't already convinced. McDougle may or may not be a wasted pick but i know when he's on the field he shows good man to man coverage and that's what Bowles needs. He's not more of a wasted pick than MILLINER who gets LESS PT than McDougle. We're really deep at that position if he was a waste i doubt he would have made the team TBH. Jace is Jace. Nobody is really too big on him. Doesn't seem like Bowles is either... and tbh idk why ppl here even give a damn about TE's lol CHAN DOES NOT USE THEM PERIOD. They are too slow and can't run the routes you would want from spread offense receivers. He didn't use them in Buffalo, he used his bigger WR's to play that role..same thing he's doing here.. Reilly hasn't done much stat wise but his impact is evident when he's on the field. He has a better motor than old man pace and he helps collapse the pocket. Plus he's not bad covering the flats. Good rotation player.
I hear you... I feel like CJ2K should've been used how we use bilal.. screen plays and outside stretch plays...Not up the gut. The playcalls for CJ2k last year were laughable. Sad we wasted such a great talent on ego. (Rex sticking solely to his power run) Im not sure what was up with Rex and Idzik but i know whatever they had going on was the real reason we went 4-12. Glad theyre both gone.
You have to remember that the Jet's MO for the draft coming into the Idzik era was to bundle picks and trade up and that's why we were where we were at that point. Obviously the Jets existing draft apparatus did not support finding a lot of good players in a draft, it supported cherry-picking a few guys at the top and grabbing a few projects also. I'd say the biggest problem with the John Idzik era is that he did not get to rebuild the front office in his vision when he came in the door. That made him just a figurehead for a dysfunctional talent acquisition scheme and when he insisted on using picks instead of trading them the flaws in the existing scheme were fully exposed for the first time. The Jets just sucked at finding players late in the draft and ALWAYS had and so they went close to 0-fer after the 2nd round in both drafts. Maybe that was Idzik's fault for not insisting on installing his own draft team but the strategy wasn't bad, just the execution. The mid-season press conference just put the nail in the coffin for a dysfunctional draft department that took everybody down with them.
I don't think he purposely tried to sabotage Rex, the problem was that they were operating on different timetables. Rex needed to win now, Idzik was trying to rebuild. And when you rebuild losing should be expected and that's usually because young guys don't know how to win. How can you make the assumption that he didn't hit after only a year or two? Amaro got hurt, Milliner was hurt, McDougle is a rotation player/special teams guy, and we don't know how Geno would've looked had he not get hurt. Winters has been solid this year, Aboushi was decent but was cut for some reason, we've gotten contributors out of our late round picks from Bohannon, Reilly, IK (before he was cut), and Enunwa and he found a hidden gem in Marcus Williams. Plus he found decent depth guys like Walls, Sudfeld, Barnes, etc. When you're rebuilding you sometimes have to see what works and what doesn't work, guys will not pan out that's a given. But making that claim after a year or two is too soon.
It's definitley not too late for Idzik's drafts to bet better than Macs. I think acquiring Marshall, Fitz, and Wack Stacey made our draft look 5x better than it really was. We were graded at an A by most sources (ESPN, NFL, Rotoworld etc.) .. but only way i can see that not being an overrated grade is if PETTY pans out. Right now only players i see from 2015 draft that are noteworthy are Cat Williams and Mauldin. I'm not a Devin Smith fan, hope he pans out but i don't think he's all that. He's not even the burner he's made out to be tbh. Maybe he was in college but not here. I see little to know seperation and his route running is weird. Plus he's clearly gonna be injure-plauged. Is Jarvis Harrison even on our roster? I dont even know who Deon Simons is lol.. Like i said.. Petty will be the difference between an average draft and a good draft. i don't think Mac had a bad draft any way you put it.
