Religion - a respectful discussion, for those interested

Discussion in 'BS Forum' started by Truth4U2, May 2, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Truth4U2

    Truth4U2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2014
    Messages:
    1,717
    Likes Received:
    362
    From Peter Kreeft's famous "20 Arguments for the Existence of God" (Not all of them are convincing, but some of them are. I'll start with this one)

    "This proof is in some ways like the argument from religious experience (18) and in other ways like the argument from desire (16). It argues that:

    1. Belief in God—that Being to whom reverence and worship are properly due—is common to almost all people of every era.
    2. Either the vast majority of people have been wrong about this most profound element of their lives or they have not.
    3. It is most plausible to believe that they have not.
    4. Therefore it is most plausible to believe that God exists.
    Everyone admits that religious belief is widespread throughout human history. But the question arises: Does this undisputed fact amount to evidence in favor of the truth of religious claims? Even a skeptic will admit that the testimony we have is deeply impressive: the vast majority of humans have believed in an ultimate Being to whom the proper response could only be reverence and worship. No one disputes the reality of our feelings of reverence, attitudes of worship, acts of adoration. But if God does not exist, then these things have never once—never once—had a real object. Is it really plausible to believe that?

    The capacity for reverence and worship certainly seems to belong to us by nature. And it is hard to believe that this natural capacity can never, in the nature of things, be fulfilled, especially when so many testify that it has been. True enough, it is conceivable that this side of our nature is doomed to frustration; it is thinkable that those millions upon millions who claim to have found the Holy One who is worthy of reverence and worship were deluded. But is it likely?

    It seems far more likely that those who refuse to believe are the ones suffering from deprivation and delusion—like the tone-deaf person who denies the existence of music, or the frightened tenant who tells herself she doesn't hear cries of terror and distress coming from the street below and, when her children awaken to the sounds and ask her, "Why is that lady screaming, Mommy?" tells them, "Nobody's screaming: it's just the wind, that's all. Go back to sleep."
    http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm#19


    I would add that you could tie this into the argument from evolution. (not one of Kreeft's 20 arguments, but then he's a Ph.D. in Philosophy, not Biology)

    Basically, evolution, or natural selection, says that the traits of a population of organisms will tend to change, over time, in response to changing conditions in their environment. One classic example is the evolution of peppered moths in Industrial England. To summarize, as the rise of industry caused the color of the buildings in London to darken, the population of the peppered moth species changed as well. More dark-colored moths began to emerge, and there were fewer light colored moths. The reason is that the soot-darkened buildings allowed the dark moths to blend in and be camoflauged, so they could not be eaten by predators.

    So, evolution happens due to environmental factors that tend to increase the survival capabilities of one variety, while decreasing the survival of another. This changes the genetic makeup of the species as a whole, and thus the characteristics of the species change over time. Now, it is well-known, even by atheists, that human beings have always had a natural tendency to believe in a transcendent reality, a supernatural or spiritual reality, or what we commonly call God. Of course, some primitive cultures or those that evolved in the more distant past believe in many gods. But belief in the divine is a universal characteristic of humans, with few exceptions. (even today, only about 5% of people worldwide call themselves atheists). So, therefore, according to the theory of evolution, belief in God and religious activity would have to have some kind of survival advantage. If I sacrifice my life for my Faith, that is hardly a survival advantage, in fact it's the opposite....therefore self-sacrificing love, which is a characteristic of many people, perhaps the vast majority of people, is counter-evolutionary. After all, how many people would not give their lives to save their child, or even a complete stranger who is about to fall off a bridge? Won't the vast majority of us try to save them, regardless of their age, health, or any other factor? In other words, even though we may be much younger and have more of our life ahead, we will still risk our lives to save them. Again, counter-evolutionary.

    But an even more fundamental part of the theory of evolution is that everything that we do has a real object, something real and tangible in nature, that causes us to do it....except prayer, religious activity, and a belief in God. So either we have an evolutionary tendency to do non-practical things for an imaginary god, or this God really does exist. Which is more likely? Why would we have evolved a spiritual side to our nature if there is no spiritual reality?
     
  2. NY Jets68

    NY Jets68 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Messages:
    6,230
    Likes Received:
    3,484
  3. JStokes

    JStokes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2013
    Messages:
    20,735
    Likes Received:
    9,196
    Honors classes in High School?

    Wow, very impressive.

    Were you an Eagle Scout too?

    _
     
  4. ChrebetCrunch

    ChrebetCrunch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2015
    Messages:
    508
    Likes Received:
    487
    You typed all that just for me to do this. NOPE.
     
  5. sozopol

    sozopol Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    2,239
    Likes Received:
    1,964
    You could argue the case that some sort of "religious" or spiritual belief has evolved and must confer some advantage, over the lack of it. You could argue that case, I say, and also argue against it in my opinion. But even if you believe that this characteristic did evolve, it still doesn't prove the existence of your god, or any god. It is unrelated. Do you see that?
     
  6. ChrebetCrunch

    ChrebetCrunch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2015
    Messages:
    508
    Likes Received:
    487
    Remember the time when the Lord was defeated by Iron Chariots?

    And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges_1:19&version=KJV

    An omnipotent, omniscient, god defeated by iron. Cue the Price is Right loser horn.
     
  7. JStokes

    JStokes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2013
    Messages:
    20,735
    Likes Received:
    9,196
    Just came out of a wedding that went 1.3 hours holy shit.

    Sit stand kneel stand sit.

    What a crock.

    _
     
    TommyJ and NY Jets68 like this.
  8. NY Jets68

    NY Jets68 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Messages:
    6,230
    Likes Received:
    3,484
    har har
    Sounds like a catholic wedding...
     
  9. JStokes

    JStokes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2013
    Messages:
    20,735
    Likes Received:
    9,196
    Yup. A bunch of fucking lemmings.

    _
     
  10. Charlie Kelly

    Charlie Kelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2014
    Messages:
    2,943
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    At least you didn't have far to go
     
  11. JStokes

    JStokes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2013
    Messages:
    20,735
    Likes Received:
    9,196
    Wedding was in Newark. Oooof.

    _
     
  12. Ralebird

    Ralebird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Messages:
    14,947
    Likes Received:
    9,247
    Wow! The stupidity only gets more and more obvious!

    Please explain why a Jewish man would use the term "God's Providence" in the piece YOU quoted if it was a term reserved for use by catholics. This was a guy who held a high position in the John Birch Society, not at the vatican, so you might want to reconsider and accept that the god talk as explanation for almost everything is just a right wing strategy and, like virtually every single thing you post, is not based on fact, truth, or even a decent theory.
     
  13. Ralebird

    Ralebird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Messages:
    14,947
    Likes Received:
    9,247
    That's it! It was that catholic school shtick, the old "my way or the highway" thing. This is this and that is that and don't dare question a thing the penguin says or you will forever burn in hell! Too bad you never learned to explore for yourself to discover the truth - the real truth, not the one they just insisted you call the truth.

    Feel free to post whatever you want, but don't try to blow smoke up anyone's ass by calling your posts thoughtful; they're the opposite. I would also suggest that you separate your "scientific"and "religious" comments into two distinct threads - they don't go together.
     
    #793 Ralebird, Jul 5, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2015
  14. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Messages:
    27,669
    Likes Received:
    28,871
    what in the FUCK? that's your response to a true statement about George Washington? read a history book man. I wasn't even interjecting my opinion.

    Washington certainly wasn't catholic lol. He probably never stepped foot in a catholic church and when he attended the anglican church he refused to take communion.
     
  15. joe

    joe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    8,993
    Likes Received:
    5,633
    Hey Truth, what's your take on these nun origami getups?



    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Dierking

    Dierking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2006
    Messages:
    16,833
    Likes Received:
    15,956
    What kind of acid was the guy that came up with the Flying Nun taking?
     
  17. TommyJ

    TommyJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2010
    Messages:
    2,402
    Likes Received:
    341
    If george washington were alive he'd be behind bars doing a fairly lengthy stretch for all the hemp that he grew on his land in virginia,
     
  18. ChrebetCrunch

    ChrebetCrunch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2015
    Messages:
    508
    Likes Received:
    487
    You ever see something so ridiculous that you don't know whether it's real or satire?
     
  19. Dierking

    Dierking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2006
    Messages:
    16,833
    Likes Received:
    15,956
    I've been watching the Jets for over forty years. So yeah.
     
  20. TNJet

    TNJet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    6,312
    Likes Received:
    1,636
    So my wife asks our 10 year old if she believes in God. She replied, "No". I was so proud. Kids are way smarter than we were at that age.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page