You completely misunderstood what I said, so I will try again. 1) Everything that begins must have cause for its beginning. 2) Science tells us that the universe began with the Big Bang, a tiny, dense singularity which exploded and gave rise to the entire universe. Prior to that there was nothing. 3) So either this singularity somehow "always existed" and then magically exploded all by itself, or there must have been something else that gave rise to the singularity and caused it to explode. Again, science tells us there was literally nothing prior to the appearance of this singularity. 4) If an event was either caused by something supernatural or by nothing at all, it must have been caused by something supernatural. In other words, the singularity that gave rise to the Big Bang could not have created itself, yet science tells us that there was literally nothing prior to that. So the answer, then, must lie outside of science. And if you argue that we just don't know what came before the Big Bang singularity, then you are just shifting my argument back a bit, because I will then ask you what came before that. This was Plato's classic argument of a first cause, or universal causation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument
I completely understand what you're trying to say, but I'll just repeat my response until you understand logic. Not knowing something doesn't prove something else. We don't know what happened before the big bang. Science doesn't know and theologians don't know. Again, not knowing something doesn't prove something else. This is the same fallacious argument about the watch on the beach. The watch just didn't appear on the beach. Someone or something put it there. Then there is the banana argument, and don't get me started on the banana argument. Save your time and don't use anything with the word "argument" in the title as a source.
I wouldn't debate you because it would be like debating with a 7 year old, even though you say you were top 5% in your high school. I'm not that cruel. _
You can't just make this stuff up...but you do. The president was voicing his opinion, that's all. He was telling people what they wanted, and maybe needed, to hear. But just because he opines, does not make what he says a truth, merely a philosophy. And by the way, the Star Spangled Banner was not written by Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin or any of your other founding fathers, whom you presume to be expert on, it was written by Francis Scott Key who was not even born when the country was founded. "In God We Trust" was declared the motto of the US during the McCarthy era of politics in 1956, almost 200 years after your founding fathers were dead. I'd guess that your nonsense here in the past couple of days only rises to the level of venial sin, rather than the mortal sins you committed defending those child rapists in clerical collars a few weeks ago. Have a nice day.
Actually the president's speech writer was telling America what a focus group and a bunch of advisors wanted them to hear
Even if we conceded that a higher power created the universe, it still wouldn't prove the existence of the biblical god or Jesus. The fact that christian apologetics argue that a god created the universe is just an admission that the bible is null and void. You can't believe in both creationism and reality.
"outside the realm of science". What does that even mean? what does it mean? what is the realm of science?
I want to make some smart remark here, but I frankly don't think there is anything I can add that would make this more humorous.
You are right, it does not prove something else, but it DOES prove the necessity for something else. In other words, it doesn't prove exactly what that something else is, but we can prove that science alone is not sufficient to explain the creation of the universe. That's what I mean.
Science studies the physical, natural universe. .....science does not, and by definition cannot, study the supernatural, or spiritual. Or what's sometimes referred to as the metaphysical. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/science "knowledge about or study of the natural world based on facts learned through experiments and observation." ... It's kind of hard to "observe" the spiritual, isn't it, much less study it with any kind of equipment we have. (cue the google images of Ghostbusters lol!) Metaphysical "of or relating to things that are thought to exist but that cannot be seen" "of or relating to the transcendent or to a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/metaphysical Supernatural "unable to be explained by science or the laws of nature" "of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially: of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/supernatural
First of all, thank you for your comments. You sound like a very thoughtful and intelligent person. I appreciate people with differing opinions who express those opinions in a respectful, mature way. To respond to your first comment, it is perfectly OK to say you don't know. I felt that way at one time myself. God makes Himself known to each of us at different times in our lives. Ultimately, no matter what I say, or anyone else says, Faith is a gift from God. There is no absolute proof of God's existence, only evidence and personal experiences. After all, according to the Bible, God wants it this way; He wants us to come to believe through Faith, not through sight. That's why He will never appear before us in any kind of physical way (except of course for His ultimate revelation through Christ Jesus). It was much easier for the Apostles to believe because they actually witnessed God in the flesh in the person of Christ, who revealed Himself as God by way of His miracles. So God understands it is more difficult for us today, in the 21st century, to believe in Him. And God never "damns or condemns" anyone to hell, this is a common misconception; we are given free will, and we ourselves make the choice as to where we end up after this life. If anyone is in hell, they are there because they made the choice to reject God repeatedly throughout their life, which resulted in a slow but steady hardening of their heart to love. In short, to be at risk of hell, one has to reject not just God but love itself, since God is love. In other words, one has to put their soul in a state where they become bitter and hateful, and so close their eyes to love in their lives, and to God as a result. While the Catholic Church has safeguarded and passed on the fullness of Truth from the time of Jesus Christ and the Apostles, as Catholics we recognize that God, and Jesus, works in mysterious ways. In other words, it is very possible for non-Catholics to be saved even if they are not aware of it, by the good deeds in their lives, and the love they have in their hearts. Anyone who loves is of God, and has the spirit of Christ Jesus in them. Therefore, they will be saved. Christ Jesus saves people who have adopted His principles of love, even if they don't necessarily recognize Him. You might ask, then....why do we have to be Catholic, or even Christian, if we can be saved just by being a good person? Well, the answer is that the Catholic Church teaches the way of life that leads to the greatest degree of inner peace, joy, happiness, and contentment, if we try our best to live according to its principles. We are all sinners, so we will stumble and fall from time to time, but the Catholic Church has the beautiful Sacrament of Reconciliation, though which we can repent and become reunited to Christ and His Church. And believe me, when you go "all in" the rewards are indescribable, I have come to appreciate the benefits of being Catholic in a profound way in my life. Of course I am not perfect, and I am a sinner like anyone else, but I know that I am happiest when I avoid sin and live Christ's love as closely as possible. And to touch on your second point briefly here, the question of suffering is probably the biggest reason people turn away from the Church. I will try to summarize the best I can here, and talk more about it later if you want, or if anyone is interested. First of all, tragedy and suffering often brings about great good in the world. 9/11 and the recent church shootings are a couple recent examples. In both of those cases, the tremendous loving response of people brought God's love to the forefront, and taught valuable lessons to countless people. In the case of the recent shootings, CNN broadcast an entire church service, the first time that's ever happened, and many people probably "went to church" for the first time in a long time, or maybe the first time ever, when they otherwise would not have. It brought church to a worldwide audience of believers and non-believers alike. It showed how the religious people in that community were able to forgive the shooter, and even pray for his soul, right after he killed a loved one of theirs. That was truly amazing, it showed the power of Christianity to change hearts, and it showed the healing power of forgiveness in action. Instead of a race war, the people came together in love, and even forgave the shooter. It reminded me of how Pope John Paul II forgave his would-be assassin, and you could see how it changed his heart, and it turned a killer into a changed man who learned the power of love and forgiveness. The power, and genius, of Christianity. There have been many other examples of this throughout history, including the recent Newtown school shootings. Suffering can also have a powerful, transformative effect on the sufferer, when it is united to Christ's cross. Theologians have studied this extensively, but I'll try to summarize here. Christ suffered on the cross in atonement for our sins, and to pave the way for our salvation. When we too suffer, we can "offer it up" and unite it to Christ's suffering, and in so doing we can help make reparations for the sins of others, including those in purgatory, who need our prayers. The souls in purgatory are already saved, but they need to be "purged" of whatever "impurities" remain in their soul that prevent them from loving fully and completely. In other words, while their soul is close enough to God and loving enough to be saved, they are not quite ready for Heaven. So we can unite our sufferings to Christ to help those in purgatory, as a way to pray for them and show loving concern for them. Suffering can also help us to recognize just how fragile life is, and how much we rely on God. We would not have life without God, and we rely on God's help in our lives in ways that we often overlook. When we are sick, or stricken with a disease, for example, we become aware of our need for God, and our need for prayer. We pray more often, and our loved ones show their love and concern for us. All of this brings us closer to God. In this way, while we still seek to avoid suffering when we can, we know that the suffering that will inevitably come our way in this life is not in vain, and is in fact a valuable part of life, since it helps to lead us to Heaven. .... and we never know when God will help to alleviate the suffering of those caught in terrible circumstances. Sometimes this comes in the form of the body's "shock response", which puts the individual in a subconscious state and thus lessens the suffering. For those who do not understand, or who are too young to understand, God may intervene to help them in ways we don't know of. Jesus taught us that God never gives us a cross bigger than we can handle. ....and of course, this life is short and passing, whatever suffering we endure here is just a tiny blip in comparison to an eternity of unending joy and happiness.
All we have agreed on is that we don't know what happened before the Big Bang, but somehow that proves the existence of god. We don't know, therefore a magic invisible wizard did it.
