Heh, I did notice Clark said earlier that Ducasse was drafted in the same draft as Winters. I would not rule out he may consider himself a Jet fan now, but he may not have followed the team before his relative Smith came here. See his post 108 on this thread, where referrring to the 2013 draft, he said: i'm of the opinion that they could have done both. But they failed drafting the OL (Ducasse and Winters) and the receiver (Hill). Heh. And of course Hill was not drafted in 2013, either. Make that two heh's.
This thread deserves to be in a cesspool. I wish we could bring it back that section, just 1 more time. The shit I have read in this topic, it's pretty upsetting when you realize you are talking to other Jet fans.
Ok, so to appease you I'm supposed to "move on" from the truth of the Jets S-H-I-T-T-Y pass-blocking OL? Sorry, you're welcome to live in a fantasy world where the Jets OL hasn't sabotage every QB since Brett Favre, but I'm not. But, hey, it's not like the Jets' problems are limited to the OL. Did you see the starters at WR for the Jets the last couple of years?! I guess Smith is supposed to make Stephen Hill be able to run routes correctly or make David Nelson speedier and more athletic or keep Greg Salas (a guy I like) on the field. But, sure, sometimes Smith holds onto the ball too long. That's called inexperience...
Wow, you caught me. I got my years mixed up. But they actually DID draft both the OL Ducasse and Winters and the receiver Hill. So, the point--not the minutia surrounding it--still seems valid. And you misspelled referring (it's not "referrring" as you indicated in the quoted post) so, one heh...
Please spare us the boo hoo poor Geno has such a bad o-line narrative. In 2014 Geno had the 2nd highest average time to throw in the NFL as well as the 3rd rank rushing attack. In 2013 Geno had the 5th highest average time to throw in the NFL as well as the 6th rank rushing attack.
I'd like to see these stats. What I looked up seems to say something different: Jets OL ranked 31st in the league: http://www.advancedfootballanalytics.com/index.php/home/stats/offensive-players/team-offensive-lines 31 NYJ -1.78 -50.8 35 180 66 58 -1.11 -0.68 -30.2 -20.6 Oh, and speaking of, ahem, not so great: When Jets starting left guard Brian Winters went down with a season ending injury in Week 6 the bar wasn’t set very high for his replacement. Through six games Winters had an ugly -11.0 pass block grade and a -4.4 run blocking grade placing him 74th out of 75 qualifying guards in overall grading. and, since someone brought up David Carr of Oakand, guess what? His line? Number fucking ONE: 1 OAK 1.70 27.4 17 103 32 31 0.88 0.81 22.9 4.5 The QB story is older, however. From last year... https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/16/qbs-in-focus-time-to-throw/ That Geno wasn't the worst or even close to it when he had time (this from last year's ratings).
Well, I know it's only day six, but this is the worst thread so far this year, to be sure. Hopefully it stays the worst all year. But I am not holding my breath.
The time in the pocket stats from PFF are below; the rushing stats you can get on any NFL site (i.e., ESPN, NFL, cbs…etc.). Truth be told you really do not need stats to tell you that Geno holds on to the ball way too long, lacks pocket awareness and does not anticipate well and that we have a pretty good rushing attack. If you really believe, the Jets are the 31st best o-line in the league, then I have a bridge to sell you. 2013 Average Time 2.5 secs and less 2.6 secs and more # Name Team Drop backs To Throw To Attempt To Sack To Scramble Drop backs % Att. Comp. Comp % Sk NFL QB Rating Drop backs % Att. Comp. Comp % Sk NFL QB Rating 1 Russell Wilson SEA 500 3.18 2.82 4.26 5.10 208 41.6 207 147 71.0 1 110.3 292 58.4 198 110 55.6 42 92.6 2 Nick Foles PHI 361 3.11 2.88 4.69 4.85 140 38.8 138 103 74.6 2 118.2 221 61.2 179 100 55.9 26 120.0 3 Cam Newton CAR 551 3.09 2.73 4.63 5.91 222 40.3 221 149 67.4 1 101.0 329 59.7 249 143 57.4 42 79.0 4 Colin Kaepernick SF 502 3.08 2.71 4.46 5.05 222 44.2 221 146 66.1 1 101.2 280 55.8 195 97 49.7 36 80.7 5 Geno Smith NYJ 516 3.06 2.79 4.29 5.29 210 40.7 209 124 59.3 1 63.8 306 59.3 233 123 52.8 42 69.0 2014 Average Time 2.5 secs and less 2.6 secs and more # Name Team Drop backs To Throw To Attempt To Sack To Scramble Drop backs % Att. Comp. Comp % Sk NFL QB Rating Drop backs % Att. Comp. Comp % Sk NFL QB Rating 1 Russell Wilson SEA 545 3.20 2.89 3.79 5.29 249 45.7 245 182 74.3 4 113.2 296 54.3 206 103 50.0 36 73.8 2 Geno Smith NYJ 425 3.10 2.79 4.28 5.66 165 38.8 161 116 72.0 4 96.1 260 61.2 205 103 50.2 23 63.3 3 Colin Kaepernick SF 577 2.96 2.68 3.72 4.96 290 50.3 285 198 69.5 5 89.4 287 49.7 193 91 47.2 46 81.9 4 Cam Newton CAR 517 2.92 2.66 3.54 5.72 229 44.3 221 140 63.3 8 89.8 288 55.7 225 122 54.2 30 75.5 5 Josh McCown TB 378 2.87 2.73 3.23 4.65 169 44.7 161 105 65.2 8 92.2 209 55.3 162 79 48.8 28 50.5
It's not what I believe, it's what was objectively assessed. But I see how it is with you: stats, when they support your argument are valid (even if the stats you posted really don't, but...).Stats when they totally disprove your argument are worthy of you trying to sell me a bridge. Note, too, that the stats about the OL are further substantiated by the independent grading of one of the worst OGs in the league. Yeah, Geno holds the ball too long, which, for this OL, is...not very long. and he lacks pocket awareness...because too many times there wasn't one. And, I think what your stats actually show is the number of times Geno decided to scramble, not that the OL held a pocket for that long (or that 2.6 seconds is a long time anway). But maybe you can explain it better than I can, since you're trying to sell bridges. I'm always willing to learn. It was enlightening looking at the stats from PFF and from Advanced Football Analytics. But I don't profess to understand all of them. the OL's 31st ranking, though, was pretty easy to understand: S-U-C-K-Y!!
Lets be fair now- There were times when he held onto the ball too long but there was an equal amount of times when he had guys in his face right from the get-go because of POS lineman whiffing. I wouldn't say he's any worse at holding onto the ball than your average QB. Vick got his ass kicked back there just as much. The line was decent in run blocking- hence the stats- but piss poor in pass blocking. Because of how they are constructed. Colon has always struggled in pass pro, Giacomini is a road grading RT never to be confused with a pass protector at all.. and winters/aboushi, run blockers by trade as well (winters doesn't block anyone)
PFF has a separate Average Time to Scramble Stat which Geno ranked 3rd highest in behind Hoyer and Newton in 2014. So he even takes a long time to decide to scramble. Per PFF "the data [which I posted] lets you find out which quarterbacks are holding onto the ball the most and how it impacts performance". Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are at the bottom of nearly everyone of those averages even Average Time to Scramble as their quickness of thought hides any of their o-lines short comings. Our OGs are horrible no doubt about that but the group overall is decent and certainly not the primary cause of Geno's poor play. Before one looks to the line, one would should look to Geno's horrendous footwork, inconsistent mechanics, situational football ignorance, poor pocket awareness, lack of anticipation…so on and so forth.
Yet Russell Wilson, the SB Champion QB, is rated No. 1. So, not sure how he's "holding onto the ball too long..." When your OGs are horrible (your words) AND your entire line is ranked 31st in the entire league, how could that NOT have an adverse effect on your QB and NOT be the primary reason your QB isn't producing? Do you understand that pressure from the inside is the quickest way to disrupt a passing attack? Can you at least show me that you have the intellectual capacity to understand inside pressure is bad? That it can have an adverse effect on footwork...or is the QB supposed to step on the oncoming rushers? Then again, you think that the Jets 31st ranked OL is "decent" and that a rushing attack that can get 200+ yards in one half and then be shut down to 67 rushing yards in the second half of a game is a "decent" line. The Jets rushing attack is virtually irrelevant anyway. They can rush all they want between the twenties. When it came to red zone rushing, they sucked. I also wonder if that 31st ranking takes into account all the penalties (pre-snap and holding) that stalled or killed drives. Because there was a ton of that too.
Basically, the PFF stat shows that on average Geno gets more time to throw than most QBs in the league yet his production is pretty sub-par the MIA not withstanding. Fans always think their OCs and o-lines are the worst. Its a by product of following just one team on a week to week basis. No o-line is impenetrable. The blitz gets home on occasion on even the best o-lines. It's all about maximizing those opportunities when you do have time and making the occasional play when you don't. The San Diego game is a great example. I remember people complaining about how little time the o-line was giving Geno and Vick to throw the ball. What people failed to realize that game was that our D was getting to Rivers equally as fast and often. The difference was that he burned us with quick decisions/throws under pressure to the tune of 31-0, whereas Geno and Vick were not up to the task.
This may exist and I don't know about it... but I wish there was a stat of some sort that valued OL when taking into account both penalties & missed blocks vs. good man on blocks.. sorta like a plus / minus that you see in basketball & hockey.
Geno Smith and Russel Wilson are not the same type of scramblers. What I can tell you is that, Wilson is much more intelligent when it comes to the art of scrambling. He extends the play with his feet and beats you with his arm. He's 10x more elusive. Geno Smith well, he doesn't do any of the 2. Wilson does hold onto the ball, however he'll make the defense pay in the long-run.
How can you question my intellectual capacity after the bold comment? Have you ever seen Russell Wilson play? The dude runs around behind the LOS for hours sometimes before he throws the ball. He has a very special skill set that allows him to get away with "holding on to the ball too long". If Geno could buy time and extend plays while still making smart decision with the ball like Russell Wilson then he could hold on to the ball as long as he likes.
I think if your o-line ranks near the top of time allotted to throw and rushing stats, then they should, at the very least, be excluded from the "they suck" discussions. What are more basic measures of an o-line's effectiveness than the amount of time in the pocket you give your QB to throw the ball and rushing yards?
Who knows. I question your intellectual capacity because you can't admit that the OL sucks, even though it was objectively ranked 31st, and you believe that "horrible" OGs have no negative effect on a QBs performance, especialy a young one. And you think you could sell me a bridge.
I understand how o-lines work and how fans will rip the line unfairly.. I'm just saying it's not unfair to say this line struggled in pass protection - it's true. The WCO here actually had him getting the ball out quickly most of the time.. it was 3rd downs when they traditionally didn't. And 3rd downs are where the pass blocking broke down & the team struggled. I understand it's hard to argue against but it was obvious from the eye. I don't know how PFF compiles their statistics but I would be curious to see how they rated every play where a rusher ran free up the middle and Geno Smith avoided him before taking time to throw. That happened way too much and is one of those that could go either way... Did he hold onto the ball long after avoiding the initial rush? Yes... but is it possible that the fact that there was an inside rusher in his face almost immediately could have something to do with it as it threw off the timing of the play? yes as well.. those kind of plays happened a lot to both Smith and Vick. Two things I will say though. First to defend the offensive line: Morningweg's wacky offensive scheme called for some unfair assignments that put the pass blockers in dubious positions. ie. a play where the entire line blocks to the left to simulate the run leaving the end free on the right side for a TE in motion to block. difficult assignments for everyone. Second to defend Geno Smith: He wasn't exactly playing with dynamic receivers and running backs here. They might not have been getting open downfield making him hold onto the ball longer in general. For all the things you can rip Geno Smith for - and there are a lot of them, I don't really think holding onto the ball is a glaring problem
This whole Geno's problem is because of the o-line discussion is not worth my key strokes. When Geno is a back-up or working a K-mart in the near future, you and he can find comfort in knowing that his demise was really not due to his inability to effectively play the position at a consistent level but because our o-line was ranked 31st. As you were; I'm done here.
