I've tried, but every time I try to forget, I get images of him with his arm hooked under the armpit or wrapped around the neck of a tackle that shoved him aside like a sack of laundry. I had a big problem with the way Green Bay was getting away with holds, but Willie got away with a number of holds himself on Sunday.
If there's a guard who was a guard (not a tackle) in college at a big school, was a starter for 2+ years, is not injury prone, has good/great size, is good/great at both run blocking and pass blocking, and projects to be an immediate quality starter with the potential to lock down that position for 10+ years, I'm happy to take that kind of guard with a mid or late 1st round pick. College-wise, I only follow my FCS college's team. I definitely have no clue about any of the top guard prospects.
I disagree. IMO that would be a gut wrench, panic-type decision. There's no doubting that the OG positions are in need of a serious upgrade, and regardless of who is the starting QB for the Jets, he needs to be protected, but in most cases I don't believe an OG merits a first round pick. The only time I think it is acceptable to use a 1st round pick on an OG is if the team is a prime playoff team set at every other position other than OG, and views itself as being that one player away from being a SB contender. I think using their 1st round pick on an OG when the Jets still have glaring needs at WR, OLB and CB would be nuts. In addition, with Brick seemingly fading (the last two years have been pretty bad and he isn't getting any younger), LT has to enter the conversation as well. While Brick hasn't been getting Geno killed as Winters as, that certainly could start happening with greater frequency, and imo, if the Jets use their 1st round pick on an OL next year, it needs to be on the LT spot. It would be nice for a change for a Jets GM to start drafting players whom he plans to replace starters and groom them for a year before thrusting them into the starting spot. In addition, I'm sure that those here who think Geno is a bad QB and isn't the answer would say that QB needs to be in the conversation as well. I think the OG positions are a problem that could be fixed pretty easily and quickly. FA WRs and CBs are very expensive as are OLBs. I think Idzik could sign a FA OG or two to shore up the OL for what it would take him to sign one WR or CB. Hopefully, Dozier develops this year and is ready to take over one of the starting OG positions next season. Idzik could sign a quality FA OG for the other starting spot, and if he didn't think that Aboushi and/or Winters were going to be at least quality depth, then he could also sign a mid- or lower tier FA OG for depth. OGs can take a year or two to develop as well unless they're highly-rated first rounders, so I don't think that drafting an OG is necessarily the solution if they plan to be truly a playoff contender next season.
A team doesn't need an All-Pro OG to win a SB. That All-Pro OG is going to command top dollar. Who would you rather tie up a sizable chunk of your cap in, an OG or a WR, QB, stud pass rushing OLB, or CB? A team simply doesn't need a Cooper, Warford or Iupati-type OG in order to be successful.
LOL. This based on a rookie missing a tackle on a crucial play by being out of position. Hold on to that thought. I have a feeling it will be proven wrong time and time again
Who was the all pro WR to win the Superbowl last year or the year before? The stud WR's dont make tons of noise in the playoffs. I think WR is a bad example. It is definitely a need for this offense, just a bad example for not needing an All-Pro top win the SB. I think CB is going to be addressed in FA, but if not, I have no issue taking a CB in the first round. Same with OLB. If there is an OLB who the coaches think they can turn into a perennial pro bowler than I'm fine with that as well. I'd be fine with a WR as well. I'm not one to force a certain position to be the pick, I am all for the "BPA within reason" strategy. I'm just including G in that. Going into our first round pick next year I'm looking at the BPA among WR/CB/T/G/OLB/MLB/CB. My point is, I'm not going to take an inferior player because "A team doesn't need an All-Pro OG to win a SB."
Who said anything about taking an inferior player? While I agree with this post for the most part, as I said earlier imo OGs are just not worthy of a 1st round pick unless your team is one player away from being a SB contender or your really solid and deep at every position other than OG and you can afford to then use your 1st round pick on an OG. Otherwise, if you take an OG in round 1, especially if you use a mid-or high round pick on one, he'd better be a perennial Pro Bowler, if not All-Pro and potential HOFer. Teams can build excellent OLs without using a 1st round pick on the OG positions, and in terms of overall importance, I don't think the OG position is nearly as important as most other positions on the football team. You obviously disagree. That's fine. We'll just have to agree to disagree on using a 1st round pick on an OG.
I think O-line is a strong likelihood for the use of our first round pick next year. We have 3 young guards, so we will see if anyone looks decent by the end of the season. I think a pretty reasonable strategy is to draft our LT of the future, although we cans start him at RT and slide Giacomini into the RG position. I like how Idzik has been addressing the offensive line so far, using 4 mid to late round picks there so far. Even if none of those guys becomes a quality starter, offensive line depth is far from the worst thing to have.
You CAN build offensive lines without using high picks on guards we have failed in doing so though. Do you realize the difference in having some of the Eagles or Saints guards would do for this running game? Sometimes you can't rely on later round draft picks to fill holes on the line if you're not willing to invest in free agency. We've had left guard problems since Faneca left and if we can draft the next one to pave the road then I don't see why you don't do it. Our offensive lineman development through this coaching staff is clearly terrible. Hence why we need to invest in someone with more skill and less development needed.
I agree with you that the OL coaches the Jets have had must be awful in terms of player development and that we haven't had a quality OG since Faneca left. That's why I advocated that Idzik sign one or two in FA. Because I can't see the point in drafting yet another OG and giving our OL Coaches another chance to fail. You can get a starting quality OG in FA for a reasonable amount. Fix the LG spot in FA and hopefully Dozier will be able to be a quality RG. If not, sign two FA OGs and totally revamp the OL. Of course, the other option is to fire our OL coach and bring in a quality OL coach. Personally, I pretty much think this whole CS is mediocre and needs to go. They have their strengths and their moments, but overall, I just don't think they're a topnotch staff.
In my opinion, when considering how valuable a position is and questioning whether to take that position in the first round, you have to look at how much of what a player does stands alone, and how valuable is what stands alone? What I mean by that is, the skill set of a man corner has 1 player defending another player all by himself, often the biggest offensive weapon a team has. His skill set, without direct help from another player has to be good enough to defend and intercept passes, making big swings in the path of the game. The same goes for safeties, WR's, pass rushers, and most of all QB's. These positions all have imperative match ups that they need to consistently win, thus the value of taking a talented one in the first round. A player like OG is different, and although physical talent definitely helps, there is not a huge drop off between a physically gifted OG with technical skill and a physically average OG with technical skill. If you have the option of drafting a physically gifted and skilled CB or WR in the first round, there is a much bigger gap between those players and physically average CB's and WR's than in a position like OG. You can also account for an OG with blocking schemes much more than you can account for a WR who can't get open very often or a CB who gets beat a lot. The same goes for paying a guard big FA money. I believe it's smarter to take guards in the 2nd and later rounds, and not to drop lots of money on them.
The problem with your analysis is that it is likely none of the three are good. Or will be. To be clear I have not given up on Winters. But his last game was pretty bad, and as of now he's still the worst starter on the offense, just like last year. By comparison Slauson improved enough from rookie to sophomore year that he escaped that appellation. And of the other two, it is fair to assume they are even worse than Winters. I can see going offensive tackle with a high pick, though, in your scenario. Only problem with that is that Brent may have to replace Colon, who is getting up there. And other needs may be higher, including Cb and, depending, perhaps Qb.
Yes Winters is the worst starter right now, and he may get better or he may not. The fact that Aboushi was not able to beat him out indicates he probably is worse, but Dozier is a 4th round rookie so I don't think we can speak to his ability at all yet. Colon will almost definitely walk this offseason, and considering our cap space I don't see us cutting Brick. That leaves us with Brick, Mangold, Giacomini, Winters, Aboushi, and Dozier. We have one good starter (Mangold), two decent starters (Brick and Breno), and three relative unknowns. We also have Freeman, who seems like a quality backup center. I'm not going to declare what I think the best way to go about the offseason yet, since we have no idea about potential draftees or FA's yet, not to mention what we might see out of Winters, Aboushi, and Dozier, or our draft position, or potential injuries. All I'm saying is that I'd generally rather get an LT in the first round than FA, and since we still have Brick we wouldn't have to throw him right into the fire against weakside pass rushers. On top of that, Breno has a solid skill set to play RG, so moving him inside is a possibility. I'm well aware our three young linemen might suck, and I stated that in my post so I can't help but think you only bring that up for a reason to argue.
I posted this in the draft area but it applies here as well. It's the lines it's the lines it's the lines. Our biggest mistake was not having a top flight line in place for a young QB. They take longer to get rid of the ball and need the time. Having them be a piñata or run to early because things break down hurts their development. A great running back, without holes to run thru, is a luxury and ineffective. Keeping TJ Barnes, a third nose, shows we get it on the D line. O line, we recently keep trying to get a player by finding one out of quantity. The team has big decisions coming that most are unaware of. In 2016, Ferguson has a cap # of 14 million and Mangold 8.6. If Ferguson goes you save nine and all of Mangolds 8.6 if he goes. Our guard play is awful (penalties put young QBs in down and distance you don't want) and our best two lineman are very expensive. If F &orM slip in 2015, you need to be ready to move on. I think round one or two you have to get one O lineman capable of being your LT of the future. He can play one of the guard spots until you have to make a decision on Brick. By the end of this year you should have an idea if any of the quantity you brought in can man the other guard spot. I think Geno gets 15 and maybe 16 to show if he can be the man. If not shoring up the line best helps him or his replacement. Last year I wanted a guy like Collins of LSU but he didn't come out. He had started at guard then last year moved to LT. Mauler run blocker, learning pass blocking in a very tough league. Now will have two years at LT. I could see a guy like that coming in to guard for a year or so and if he pans out he could take over for Brick or RT. Hadn't thought about RT and Giacomini moving inside in first year but whatever gets your best five out there.
Of course it's smarter but there's usually one or two guard a year that warrants a first round pick. We still need to see if Winters progresses but as of now we're likely to have two holes at guard next year if Winters plays all year like he did last week. Offensive line is so undervalued sometimes and I'd personally rather sign a veteran on the interior line than draft them. That's the problem though it always leaves us with stopgap solutions at the guard spot whereas some teams take them high and have a 10 year starter rather than worrying about the position every 2 years. Or we can get lucky and hit on one of these late round guys. Trying to do that reminds me of Adrian Jones a late round draft pick that we relied on after a year of development to man the left tackle spot. That year turned into our 5 different quarterback debacle in which we called Vinny T to come out and wing some balls around for us. What a glorious season.
If the Jets had to draft a guard just spending a 3rd rounder on a guard would probably be a good idea. A real guard, not a tackle convert which is the route the Jets have gone over and over again with little success since 2010. They did take a real guard late in 2009 in Matt Slauson but then they converted him to LG from the position he excelled at in college which was RG.
I am definitely interested in getting the LT of the future in here before we have to cut ties with Brick, which is why I want to do it this offseason. Personally I'd rather put a future left tackle at right tackle over say, left guard, because I wan't him to have to deal with NFL level edge rushers. Left tackle is rougher than right tackle because the weakside rushers are more dominant, plus you often have the TE to help out on blocks even if they are just chip blocks. I'm not dead set against a future LT playing guard, I just think it makes more sense to put him at tackle. I think that would work because Breno is capable of playing right guard, and pass blocking is his weaker attribute.
