and guys can look great on paper and then flame out in the league. thats why you cross check the stats with the film and obj looks great in both capacities ... yea, there are better prospects than obj, but that doesnt mean that he isnt a first round talent keep your head in the sand tho, because you "don't care how good Beckham looks on tape" ... what kind of coverages he drew, where he lined up, his route running ability, his catching technique (all things you can discern from watching film) are "irrelevant" because his teammate had more catches and TDs last season
What I want the Jets to get with the 18 pick, if they spend it on a WR, is a guy who will be tough to cover and looking for the ball and ultimately among the top 5 or 6 receivers in the league. I want a guy who if he catches 100 balls with double-digit TD's will surprise nobody in the effort. Settling for a complimentary receiver when there are guys who could go to the Hall of Fame in this draft would be horrible. It would be drafting Kenny O'Brien when Dan Marino lurked in the shadows.
And the season before. You on the other hand can keep fantasizing that the guy who looks better on tape will do anything more than look better on tape in the NFL. It's about production. A guy can look great and if he's not producing at a high level it just doesn't matter. I don't really think Beckham is a 1st round player to tell you the truth. I think he's a Cordarelle Patterson quality prospect and there's no way Patterson goes in the 1st last year if the current group of WR prospects was available.
thats a fair comp, and im not knocking your opinion ... i just dont think you can ascertain someones ability by just looking at stats
I agree with that. I do think that when you have guys who have the stats that has to mean something in the overall conversation. In a WR-weak draft Beckham might well be the 3rd best prospect, like people perceived Patterson to be last year. This isn't that draft.
Uh Lee has all 3 traits ... you could debate Lee is the hardest worker out of all 3. He has just as much if not more production, and Lee has amazing play-making ability. Not sure what you are saying here, but it seems you are looking for a way to cancel Lee out of the conversation. If we are going by those 3 aspects, Lee is the BPA on Idzik's board with Cooks 2nd and OBJ a distant 3rd.
I see Cooks as a guy who can provide a deep threat, and make plays in space. initially i think he would play the slot, and move around a bit to confuse defenses and create mismatches. bubble screens, end arounds, maybe lined up in the backfield at times. And of course, he has potential to be a dangerous punt returner which we need. Essentially he's a playmaker with speed, and a mismatch. Those are the positives. In terms of concerns, i didn't really see much in the way of high pointing the football in the air, or showing a good catch radius despite being a shorter guy. yards after contact aren't great, nor is his blocking. I think MM will have to be creative to get him on the field as much as possible, and to get him in space where he is most effective. Can he grow into an Z receiver, which has the benefit of playing off line, gaining an edge on corners who want to press? I think the FO office would have to see Z potential in the NFL to take at the #18 spot. Needs to be a 4 down player.. If it's just a slot guy, dangerous in space, and adds to the ST, that might not be enough to warrant such a high selection. we'll know which way they see him come draft day. it's a tough choice..
I agree. And when I see this guy I think of Coles. Remember when everybody talked about how fast Coles was coming out of c Guys do have stats and flame out. l think the point is guys without the stats rarely step up. You want to flip a coin, be my guest
No one goes by just those aspects. Simply comparing Beckham to Lee, Beckham is a better athlete, has better hands, attacks the ball much better, is more versatile, more durable, has better body control... I dont even think its close when comparing the two. Lee is a solid prospect and Id be happy with him on the Jets simply because he's an upgrade over what we have and can produce immediately, but if Beckham is there, I dont think there's many realistic scenarios where you pass on him. #3 WR in the draft. As far as this thread, Beckham > Cooks, but its relatively close. Would be very happy with either.
Yeah, I know there are other factors of course that play a role no doubt. Just going by what themorey said. If we want to compare Beckham to Lee, sure Beckham is a better athlete - but the production at the collegiate level is not there. 0 career TDs against Alabama and Auburn. Lee is absolutely a better football player that is more consistent, proven to be productive against bigger competition, and just brings it every Week (practice and game-day). Beckham does not. Beckham is the guy that you will fall in love with with the physical metrics, but he's no-where near the football guy Lee is. I look at the body of work in college, and to me Lee is a guy that wants to go to war, Beckham, with his lack of production against good competition, I don't see that from him. That said, I think Beckham is a good complimentary receiver. Not a good you can go to. Watkins, Evans, Lee, Jordan Matthews, Allen Robinson - those 4 guys are gamers. Beckham is an excellent fit for the Steelers, not the Jets. My rankings are - Watkins, Evans, Lee, Matthews, Cooks. Lee has the 2nd most upside in my opinion of any receiver in this draft. Combine that with the ability to produce in a WCO offense and he's the BPA at 18 for the Jets IMO. Would not be happy with Beckham.
I don't deny that and I love Lee as a prospect, but this thread was about Cooks vs Beckham. The biggest negative on Cooks is his size but I don't think that would stop Idzik from taking him if he is the BPA on their board. Much like it didn't stop the Falcons from taking Warrick Dunn with a recommendation from Idzik. Rightly or not, there are question marks about Lee being injured and dropping passes. I personally think a lot of that is overblown, and the stat about his QBs only throwing 1 INT when targeting him during his USC career is pretty impressive. I personally think its a toss up between Lee and Cooks, but lean towards Lee.
Very true, just a huge fan of the kid - I feel like Rockinz with K.B. lol... Cooks is definitely a good prospect, that the Jets should consider - his ceiling is D-Jax (now). I like Cooks much more than Beckham, and again it goes to production at the collegiate level. Beckham really to me screams red flag to me due to those production and consistency issues at college.
I mean you are basically saying production over everything else. In that case Jordan Matthews, Cody Hoffman are first round picks. Michael Sam is a 1st round pick. Aaron Murray and AJ McCarron are top 10 picks... AJ Green, Demaryius Thomas, Cordarelle Patterson, Josh Gordon ect are so-so players that didnt deserve first or second round compensation. So much in college is dependent off of the system a player plays in, the players around them, competition and so on... If stats are the only thing Lee has going for him over than Beckham, then Ill take Beckham every day. Judging a college WR off stats is just not smart. Its a piece to the puzzle, but his traits are the largest piece. If Beckham had the volume Lee had, Im sure he puts up massive numbers too. Also, dont forget the fact that Beckham had the 2nd most all purpose yards in college football... And please stop using "he works harder" or "brings it during practice" like you actually know that as fact. No one on these boards know how hard any college football player truly works other than what shit the media says. Just because he's a better athlete than Lee, it doesnt mean that everyone who loves him has fallen in love with the physical metrics. I had Beckham ahead of Lee WAY before the combine for the sole reason of what they show on the football field.
One thing to sort out with Cordarelle Patterson, he's absolutely a play-maker but he is still raw in terms of being a receiver, I think still Patterson is an INC as a WR at this stage. Production is not the end all - I'm not a scout obviously but when I look at a prospect, I am looking at the following aspects: 1. Production against good competition (not production as a whole) - can you make plays against the best? M. Lee, AJ Green, D.Thomas proved this at the collegiate level. They raised their level of play against better competition. Beckham fails this eye test with flying colors. 2. Transition to a pro-offense - Pretty much all of the receivers played in a pro offense (aside from Cooks to an extent). Now, to me who stood out in that pro-offense and do they translate to the WCO? Beckham, while he never shoulder the load at LSU was a complimentary receiver to the more solid Jarvis Landry. In regards to Beckham vs Lee. Lee wins hands down, you can line him up anywhere - he's played in a west coast offense, knows the terminology. Played as the primary receiver. Was reliable as a primary receiver. 3. Upside - Beckham has A LOT of upside, but the floor is really low. I think of him as a boom or bust player, due to the 2 factors listed above. Jets cannot afford to spend the 18th pick on a boom or bust player. Lee you can argue has the most upside out of anyone in this draft once he improves his catching ability. What you get in Lee is a guy that can come in and produce right away with no questions asked, he also has the potential to be a primary receiver a guy you can go to anytime any down. I have to go with Lee here again. AJ Green, D. Thomas, Patterson - they ooze with potential - some are already fulfilling that potential. 4. Work Ethic - Lee is a warrior, and you cannot question his work ethic. I like Beckham's work ethic as well reading the articles and seeing the interviews. For the sake of argument, let's call this a push. I love D. Thomas's attitude, as well as AJ Green. Patterson is INC IMO. I don't want athletes, I want football players and Lee is more of a football player from what I have seen compared to Beckham. I'm positive Beckham had the opportunity to be the man in LSU, but Landry took it away from him year in and year out. I encourage you to read about Marquise Lee and his work ethic. They don't compare him to Reggie Wayne for nothing. He's a student of the game. Him and Geno would be an excellent fit together. To me this off-season is about bringing in players that are reliable. People are hating on Lee because he was injured (and still produced!) in 2013. Also, the coaching change and QB change and you won't see the dominate Lee. I saw his kid dominate in 2012, I think that's the real Lee. People want to act like oh Beckham has amazing body control, but I didn't see Beckham do any of those things against top competition, what makes me think he'll do it in the NFL full-time 16+ weeks? The best thing someone posted about Beckham was when he caught a freaking football with 1 hand in the back of the EZ, now everyone wants Beckham. People get too infatuated with potential and physique. There's more to the game.
I just completely disagree that Beckham has a very low floor. Give me one good reason to support that? He creates separation through breaks, has enough size, attacks the ball at an elite level, great body control, can help in the return game, proficient route runner, comes from a pro system, has dynamic playmaking ability, durable, great hands... Why does he have a low floor? Because he didnt catch 1500 yards in a season? I honestly think you are putting too much stock into his production, which was pretty damn good. Scouting isnt about production as much as it is about what type of player the person is. There's just too much going on in football to hinge a players pro potential on numbers. I can guarantee you that the lack of production that you want to see is not due to him being unable to create separation and get open.
So what will? I've already been as outspoken as I can against OBJ, I gave in a little bit but all I see on tape is a complimentary receiver. I've said it till my head turns blue what more can I say?
