It comes down to how much you credit/blame QBs for playoff wins and losses. I think there enough evidence to support that great QBs can help their teams win consistently in the regular season, but the teams that play the most complete win in the playoffs win. Using that evidence, I take a closer look at how a QB passes in the playoffs, against the type of D they go up against, and how that ranks against other QBs. My go to example is Tom Brady's career. There is QB A who is Tom Brady from 2001-2006. There is QB B who is Tom Brady from 2007-2013 (minus the injury year). If I'm drafting a team, I take QB B who's teams have averaged 1 playoff win per year in that timsepan. Why is that, because QB B played the QB position in the NFL at a higher level vs his peers from 2007-2013 than QB A did from 2001-2006. I'm guessing the people who value playoff wins as QB stat would take QB A? I don't know, but the way I view QBs, I think it's clear QB B is better and would rather have QB B on my team. (I would not miss on draft picks like Bill and would build a solid team around QB B so he the team doesn't rely on the offense scoring all the time but that's different topic on flawed teams and construction of teams)
I think you misunderstand. I am not saying he hasn't had great moments in the playoffs like in the second half of that game, just that they aren't NFL history defining moments the way other great QB's have. the Jets secondary was so busted up that game; he didn't light up the D that put up those numbers. beyond that, it wasn't a historical NFL performance, even if it isn't something Brady has ever matched in the playoffs.
I misunderstood kind of. I still disagree with your clarification. I think it's pretty historic game and performance. That's the way I'll remember it. There is no "play" though which what I think you are getting at. Nothing like Eli's throw to Tyree or Big Ben's throw to Holmes.
I'm not sure you need to have an NFL history defining moment to be considered one of the greatest. Everyone remembers the Catch and John Candy but it was Montana's body of work that makes him the greatest. If you're looking for a sound bite sure, but if you're having a discussion about how the greatest stack up, I don't think that one moment puts someone over someone else. Is Eli better than Peyton because of Tyree? No, it doesn't. _
Yeah I saw 1985 post the stat, I wasn't sure how it's relevant but threw it into my post. I don't think you need one, and I do kind of agree that PM doesn't have one play, but I would also argue Brady doesn't have that one play either. It hurts when neither QB has a GW passing TD with under 2 minutes left. Big Ben has one, Eli has one on the Tyree drive, but funny enough TB and PM do not have one.
Yeah I kind of think having that "moment" is overrated and if you are going to penalize Manning for not having one you need to penalize Brady for it too. I'm just shocked that anyone could think Manning is overrated. He's an all time great. He's in that separate room in the HOF. But hey, I still think Marino is an all time great and he never even won a SB. _
Yeah, it really comes down to how you personally judge a QB. I put emphasis on QB stats more so than others but I think I've explained myself clearly in the past why I do that. Once you start going into the gray territory of "he didn't make enough plays" or "he doesn't have the IT factor" you are going into an endless loop of opinion with nothing to back it up which makes the arguments silly. I try to keep them more concrete which people think all I use is numbers which isn't true. If a wide variety of numbers match my eye test, then I go forward with the numbers and seeing if they way they are calculated make sense. If something doesn't pass my eye test but the numbers are there, I start going to any film of the game or clips of the game I can find. Or if two numbers are varied a lot, I go back and try to figure out why. That hasn't come up with PM, he passes my eye test with flying colors, his regular season passing numbers back it up, and his post season passing numbers back it up.
yes, let us never compare them again please. Peyton is way better, and the guy i would take on my team 7 days of the week!
I'm not arguing that he isn't a great QB because he lacks it, I am saying he lacks that type of moment, unlike other great QB's, and that could be why some people would place him below those other QB's in a list of all time greats. whether that is fair or not is certainly up to debate.
that's more of what I am getting at. some "plays" are TD passes, other are like Eli's pass to Manningham on the sideline. it is whether a QB has made that great, historic play in a big moment. Peyton doesn't have one. fair or not, Brady's GW drive against the Rams is held in that regard in NFL history.
No way, Law's pick-6 was the play of that game because that was the first sign where it became possible that the Rams might struggle. I barely even remember Brady playing in that game, he was such an afterthought. His drive at the end, like I said, dumpoffs with zero pressure because worst case was overtime. I mean all jokes aside, Sanchez could have done what Brady did in that SB. Many bad QBs could have. It does not take much to throw 140 yards and a TD.
Also, what's funny is people diminish Wilson by calling him a "game manager" but praise Brady as a living legend. Wilson is light years ahead of where Brady was in his 2nd year, to even compare them at that stage would be a slap in the face to Wilson. The best comparison for 2001 Brady is 2010 Sanchez
Yeah I could see that. The big play form that drive I think I remember. The Colts were on the NE side of the field, PM hits Wayne on a route and Wayne starts running through the Pats D. He tries to spin out of a tackle and he fumbles the ball straight into the air. The ball manages to fall into his hands as he's getting tackled so it's not a fumble. Yeah I think if it's a QB making a play, to me neither PM or TB qualify unless we include the tuck rule for TB. TB highlights end with an AV kick and PM ended with Addai running it in
Yeah, I'm still not getting that. When you think of "The Drive" in the annals of NFL history, nobody is thinking Tom Brady. Great great player--I'm not sure his "moment" rises to the level of those other moments. And mind you, I don't think "moments" are important unless all things else are equal--and in these debates they never are. _
not the point at all. if you don't think Brady's drive isn't what is touted in that game, you are mistaken. whether there were bigger moments in a game is irrelevant. plays with the game on the line at the end are simply given more applaud than plays early in the game.
of course nobody has ever called it "the drive." but when Brady's place in history is discussed it is discussed and pointed to as an example of his greatness. right or wrong, it is. that isn't to say it is as great as those other plays or moments, just that he has that moment to talk about and which history points to. Manning doesn't have something comparable.
I agree, but only to the "casual fan" public that enjoy narratives. The same public that moved the line from Seattle -1 to Denver -3 in this SB.
I get what you're saying, but I don't think Brady's legacy is tied to that drive--or that it's even in the top 5 things people think about when discussing his legacy. _
