that's like Welker's drop? he has a hand in his face. did Brady throw TWO RZ INTs in those games like Manning in that one? what 7 pt lead w/ 1:04 to play/ I know the 2 pt lead they blew after Peyton couldn't get a 1st down to end it and settling for a 50 yd FG. A little different than Brady leading his team 80 yds for a TD and FOUR pt lead. Oh the 7 pt lead last year where AGAIN he failed to get a 1st down to end it and had THREE INTs that directly led to 17 pts in a 3 pt loss including the INT that's et up the GW FG in double OT for Bal. Also the same game his STs scored FOURTEEN points for him and he still found a way to lose. Exactly the same as taking a late 4 pt lead on an 80 yd TD driv(where they couldn't run out the clock):rofl: it's about making plays to win not meaningless fantasy #s. the fact that they were there and had that lead was miraculous. His main weapons were Jabar Gaffney and reche Caldwell, if Peyton had those guys he wouldn't have made the playoffs let alone a title game. his "game sealing INT" was down 4 at the Colts 45 w/ :24 secs left. Not exactly trailing by 7 at the NO 31 w/ over 3 mins left. and Brady led his O to 13 2nd half points, their D blew it. Just so we understand those 13 SECOND HALF points are almost as many as Peyton on average leads his O's to in playoff losses(14.8). I am not misconstruing anything, I am dealing w/ facts. peyton is a mediocre QB in the biggest games, sorry if that bothers you but it is the truth. if last year couldn't convince I don't know what will. gets 14 free pts from Sts and STILL cannot win b/c he throws 3 picks that lead to 17 pts in 2OT loss by 3. but he got there and led an 80 yd drive to take a 4 pt lead in the final minutes. I NEVER have pinned ALL the blame on Peyton but he deserves the bulk as he rarely shows up in big games.
Haha Junc is so myopic it's insane. Brady's INT is lesser than Peyton's because there was less time on the clock. Lmfao
do you not understand this game? Do you think the situations were the same? it's embarrassing how people that spend day after day after day talking football don't understand what they are watching.
Yeah I get how they are different What I don't get is why Brady gets a pass. You bash Manning for averaging 14 pts per in losses but make excuses for NE putting up a measly 14 and 17 pts in their SB losses. Those were choke jobs by those offenses. And they were stacked with talent.
Brady doesn't get a pass, I have criticized him for his Peyton like postseasons in recent years but even when struggling he finds ways to give his teams a chance. they put up low pt totals but the D blew late leads, they were low scoring games. Some were high scoring like 32-29 Carolina SB, most lower scoring. The only SB year NE was stacked w/ talent was the 2007 one. The 2011 one his best weapon was nowhere near healthy and he didn't have a big target at WR to throw to.
Wow you really don't read what I write. You just repeat what you say over and over. I said a drop existed and found a gif. You say it's not like Welker's drop. That's not the argument buddy, it's if a drop existed, not if it was similar to Welker's. You said it didn't exist, it clearly does. A blown lead is a blown lead. It doesn't matter what happened before when talking a blown lead. Failed first downs, you never mentioned it for Brady in 2006. That was my point, you didn't use the criticism for both QBs. Ah yes the fact they were there and had the lead was miraculous, but you just said winning is all that matters! Consistency within your arguments is another problem. (Also it wasn't miraculous, the 2006 Pats had a top 10 D, top D ST, and top 10 DL. The Colts had a bottom 7 D, bottom 7 special teams, and bottom 2 DL. There's more to wins and losses than receivers and offensive talent junc) Uh yeah you acted like Peyton Manning's wide receivers never dropped a pass in the playoffs. I guess you are right, that's not misconstruing, that's just lying. Unfortunately, using your metrics of winning, random ppg is losses, and failed first downs, Tom Brady is mediocre in the biggest games. Sidenote: Although using "big" games is silly because it ignores the fact that regular season games can be "big" like division games for the division and etc. It's a poor choice of words, but the media uses it all the time so I guess you stepped in line and used it without really thinking that "big" games can be twisted to just include the "big" games a person wants to include. It's a silly use of the word because it doesn't really mean anything. What games are big, what aren't. If you are saying playoff games only, say playoff. If you are saying primetime games only, say primetime. Using big just leaves another argument open to interpretation and isn't a factual statement. That's what you don't get, every argument you used against Peyton, the OP used or tried to use against Brady. Basically you agree with the OP. That's the confusing part, you use the arguments against Peyton and then when applied to Brady they make Brady look mediocre too. But the main reason past your silly arguments I have, is that you didn't use them consistently to both QBs. Let's go back to my points: a) non Brady Patriots mistakes were mentioned b) poor play by non Brady Patriots were mentioned c) credit was given to how well opposing team played d) doesn't mention "failed first downs" e) mentions D blowing leads f) never mentions refs or calls For the Colts/Broncos losses a) not once was non Manning mistakes mentioned b) not once was poor play by non Manning players mentioned c) credit was not given to how well opposing team played d) mentions "failed first downs" e) doesn't mentioned D blowing leads f) mentions refs or a call The two you combatted were blown leads and drops. You then said show me a 80 yard TD drive followed by a blown lead and that Peyton Manning's drops don't exist. I came back and showed you a drop which then you said wasn't like Welker's. Why that matters in the world of the drop existing, I don't know, a drop is a drop. You also then talked about TDs coming before the blown lead when all I talked about was blown leads, again missing the point. So basically I pointed out the arguments that I don't agree with you didn't even use consistently. So we can't really even start to have a discussion until you apply them consistently because I don't know whether I should criticize the silly arguments or criticize the poor job of applying the arguments. Peyton Manning being mediocre in your eyes doesn't bother me.What bother me is the bad arguments, the inconstant use of the bad arguments, and the backpedaling that bothers me. You don't get it, it's not about Peyton or Brady, it's about how you are reaching the conclusions. It's like when Knicks fans say Melo is the reason the Knicks bad this year. But then say last year the Knicks team is why Melo and the Knicks were good last year. It doesn't work like that, use your arguments consistently. If you truly believe failed first downs matters, use it for both Brady and Manning. That's the thing, you aren't defending why failed first down matters and the you aren't using it consistently. That's the problem I have, not the actual result you got, but the process of how you got the results you have.
This is basically your argument against Peyton Junc with less details. It focuses on the QB only during the losses, and the team only during the wins. That's the problem I have, it talks nothing about how the QB actually played the QB position!
so what a drop existed? you are going to take every word literally? Indy could have given up another 1st down and still had a chance unlike at SD 2008 and last year for Denver vs. Baltimore. stop w/ the rankings. NE's "top 10" D in 2006 gave up an average of 25 PPG in 3 postseason games. Indy's 23rd ranked D gave up 12.8 PPG in 4 postseason games. B/c NE. Nowhere did I ever said Peyton's WRs never dropped a pass but did they ever drop one that would have all but ensured a SB title? regular season big games for these teams aren't win or go home so they really aren't that big. Remember 2010 when we had a supposed huge game at NE in December? we lost that "huge" game 45-3 then beat NE in the playoffs a month later. The real big games are in January especially for these QBs that are always in postseason. your points are flawed, you haven't countered anything w/ regards to blame for playoff losses. You are doing a great job at deflecting though. show me the games the Indy D blew a late game like NE's did often, show me the big drops, show me the great drives by peyton only to watch his D blow it? you can't do it b/c they don't exist. I never backpedal, my arguments are rock solid which is why you are being so literal w/ every word b/c you have nothing to combat my arguments. No team will ever win big w/ Melo as their star, not until he becomes a complimentary player will he win anything at this level. as far as this: a) non Brady Patriots mistakes were mentioned- relevant b) poor play by non Brady Patriots were mentioned- isn't this same as "a"? c) credit was given to how well opposing team played- NYG D shut down many top O's during their runs. d) doesn't mention "failed first downs"- where are the examples of one first down ending a game that they lost? e) mentions D blowing leads- D blew a lot of leads. f) never mentions refs or calls- got tuck rule and led team to win, manning had his version w/ the overturned INT vs. Pitt and failed to win that game. For the Colts/Broncos losses a) not once was non Manning mistakes mentioned- I am sure they have happened but where is their Welker play? b) not once was poor play by non Manning players mentioned- again, isn't this the same as "a"? or similar. c) credit was not given to how well opposing team played- what big time D's did he face? what D's played as well as NYG against NE? d) mentions "failed first downs"- in multiple playoff losses he needed one first down to ensure victory- never happened for NE and Brady. e) doesn't mentioned D blowing leads- when did his D blow leads? there are 2 examples, one a HUGE 2 pt lead after Manning failed to end game w/ 1st down. The other a 7 pt lead after manning failed to get 1st down to end it and game where Peyton got 14 free pts from STs and yet still it was close. Show me a Pats game where Brady got 14 STs/D points and couldn't win f) mentions refs or a call- overturned INT was a gift from the football gods much like the tuck rule but as usual Peyton still couldn't find a way w/ that gift and the gift of the fumble returned near midfield. Brady got a similar gift to the fumble w/ the fumble recovery at SD 2006, Brady led his team to the win.
^Yup @ LongTimeJetsFan. Especially when it has already been proven he lets the name on the Jersey or the argument he wants to make determine the conclusion he wants to reach. It is like an endless cycle. Good posters argue until they realize this and then they just ignore him. New posters come along and have to realize the same. It might be a good idea to put a sticky up warning new posters of wasting their time.
go away then, I destroy all of your weak arguments then you run and join a group to attack me to make yourselves feel better. You bring no valid points to any argument, you latch on to meaningless ones and think you have proven something. Move along, stop talking about me if you don't like me. Your loss, not mine.
If I needed arguments on the internet to make me feel better I would probably do something like constantly crow about how I destroy others weak arguments. Turns out I don't need validation/attention as badly as some. I come here to discuss football with people who don't have their head up their ass. I just want to save others some valuable time if I can. And with that, I'm out.
I don't need anything to make me feel better, I deal in reality. If you were presenting a good argument I'd tip my cap and try to learn more. That doesn't happen. You do need validation, why else would you constantly talk about me but never debate w/ me? if you dislike me that much don't talk about me, don't interact w/ me but instead you have to try to gang up on me w/ others to make yourself feel better.
What's funny here is that you never admit that you are wrong. Ever. You just change the argument and confuse it with lots of words. At least 90% of your posts are an argument. It's rare that you agree with anything anyone has to say because then you would have learned something from someone. Lose the pride, you'll enjoy life more that way.
It is rare b/c I don't think like the average fan so you really need to know your stuff. I don't lie and I am not going to pretend someone has a great point just to make them feel better. prove me wrong, apparently I am an idiot and always wrong so it should be easy yet no one can really do it except on meaningless points. I learn new stuff every day and I always want to learn more. I don't want to learnt he wrong stuff like many of you guys post but there are certain posters I always learn from even if I don't always agree w/ them. keep working and maybe you can make the list.
Junc, when I say you aren't fair when judging two players then you tell me if a drop existed you would have included it, how else should I take it? There's no body language or voice to go off of and that was your ONLY comment on the drop. I have to take what you give me, and you gave me"where were the dropped passes for peyton?...if they existed for Peyton I would have discussed them." Junc, how am I supposed take that comment in any other way except that you don't believe drops exist? You said if they existed you would have discussed them! And then you didn't discuss any!How else was I supposed to take that from the words you provided me? If you don't want me to take your literally, stop making ridiculous statements like that. That's on your end, not my end. Again, we don't have voice or body language to work with so you could have been making a joke, or offhand remark, or not really meant it, but when that's all you give me, I have to consider that your belief on the subject. Also, you are defining things like "failed first downs", I have to take your definition which are words. I have to take them literally, because they are you're fantasy stats. There is no standard definition for it, so I have to take what you write and you continuously change so I just go with the most recent way you explain it. From Brady: a) You agree, or can I not take "relevant" literally? Do you mean something else, then say something else. b) No, it's not the same to me. Poor play doesn't necessarily mean mistakes to me. Like an offense score 5 TDs in a game and have a turnover. I would consider the overall play good, but the turnover a mistake. I'm assuming you agree since you think a=b c) You agree d) vs the Colts in the AFC championship game. vs the Giants in SB 2011. (also your pure definition of "one first down ending a game that they lost" doesn't match what you are trying to say) e) You agree f) That's my point, you never mentioned the tuck rule or missed Jets FG which was good initially but mentioned the Troy INT initially showing the uneven way you analyzed the QBs. On top of that, those are the "big" calls, I'm sure there are many others to break down, so including refs to begin with is silly unless you want to go through all their playoff games and tally up refs favorable calls for them and against them. Cherry picking one example doesn't really make an argument, it just means you remember or only want to use that one example. But that;s more about the silliness of your arguments/points than the uneven way you use them, so I'll stop there with that. PM: a) My point again, they have happened and you didn't mention it. Again, uneven way of analyzing the two players. b) Similar yes, but same point as a), you didn't do it for both players, only one. c) I never said D, I said other teams in general. The SD chargers gave PM and the Colts the worst average starting position in the last 15 years of NFL playoff history and you never mentioned it (the OT game). The Jets D held the Colts to 1 TD, 3 FGs, and only 9 second half points. Those are just two examples. Again, another application of you only focusing on good play from teams that played one QB but not teams that played another QB. Also, it ties into the Giants D playing great for stopping Brady but PM playing poorly when a D stops him. Uneven application of your arguments. d) Failed first down means to ensure victory, then neither had that. Both had chances to make the loss less likely, but neither had a chance to ensure victory. Again, this is your definition and your fantasy stat, so I have to take you literally. Failed first down is whatever you want it to be. But again to the same point, Tom Brady had failed first downs in the Cotls and Giants loss in my definition of failed first down. He also had failed first downs in his 2011 BAL win where his D and Cundiff bailed him out buttt again different story. e) You contradicted yourself, "when did his D blow leads?" "there are 2 examples". (There are more than 2 depending on what a blown lead is and how much time needs to be remaining) Again, my point, you didn't initially mention them because you didn't evenly judge the QBs. And again, you rant about stuff meaningless to whether or not the D blew a lead. FYI, the Pats have never blown a lead when the opposing offense gets the ball with under 2 minutes left in the losses. Peyton Manning's defense have done it twice in his last two losses. This is actually more relevant to blown leads by the D than what the offense did to precede the blow lead. But again, my initial point is you not evenly using the term blown lead by the D. Because clearly it has happened to PM but you never mentioned it as such. Funny enough, you never mention the D "2010: WC vs. NYJ. Indy favored by 2. Leads high powered O to just 16 pts, trailing by 2 late has ball needing one first down to a)get into better FG range and b)ensure the Jets don't get a chance to get one more possession. Fails to get that 1st down, sets up 50 yd FG which they makde for lead. Mark Sanchez takes over in similar spot as Peyton in '05 div rd vs. Pitt except Mark doesn't settle for long FG, he gets his K a chip shot and Jets win. 2012: div rd w/ bye at home vs. Bal. Den favored by 9. Despite receiving 14 points on STs returns still cannot find a way at home off a bye to win this playoff game. Throws 3 TDs that directly lead to 17 pts in a 3 point double OT loss including the INT that set up the GW FG for Baltimore." Not once was the D mentioned even though they were 0:54 and 1:04 from winning the game with one job to do. Also to interject another funny point "leads high powered O to just 16 pts", how come I didn't see "leads high powered O to just 14 pts" in Brady's 2007 loss? Just another funny example of not evenly judging the two players. The funniest part about it, is using numbers which I know you don't like, factually the 2007 NE O was much more high powered than the 2010 Colts O. f) Again, you didn't mention this initially, as my point, because you didn't evenly judge the players. I had to call you out on it for you to acknowledge both players got gifts. Granted, Brady's FG kicker made the kick (45 yards) in the poor weather and Peyton's missed in the dome (46 yards) and both QBs settled for that FG length by throwing 2 incompletions before the FG, but that's a separate discussion. It took a while, but I'm glad you realized you were unevenly judging the players when you initially listed their playoff losses. You would hold out on things that would make PM look better than what you originally wrote, and you held out on thing that would make Brady look worse than what you originally wrote even though you used examples that could apply to both. That's the part I really disagree with and I hope you see now why you need to construct your arguments a bit better to fit a message board They might work better talking face to face, but not where all we can read is words. Talking face to face is also more fluid and dynamic where the message board is read, write, wait, repeat. Face to face is continuous discussion with listening. To make this short, the two main issues I had with your arguments when you started listing playoffs losses: a) They were not consistent. You didn't consistently apply your arguments to both players. You unevenly applied certain ideas and themes to only Brady or only Peyton which comes off as misconstruing what happened, having an agenda, or not fully knowing what occurred in the playoff games. b) Explaining your ideas. There is no clear definition of "failed first downs". Does it mean making the other's team less probable, or actually making it a 0% chance of the other team winning? When you make up stats, you need to be clear on what they mean. You say drops for Peyton don't exist, but don't add anything else to him it's a joke or you don't mean it. You need to expand your idea more or clear that up instead of leaving it as so. If you clear those up, our discussion would have been much easier to follow and much more relevant to the OP. Junc, I have a lot to combat your arguments, I just can't follow what your arguments are. For example, I show you a drop (a gif even!), you say they don't look like Welker's drop. You never expand, why must it be like Welker's drop? Isn't a drop a drop? You just leave it hanging without expanding. I show you a blown lead, you say show me a 80 yard D before it. You never explained why the 80 yard TD is relevant to the D blowing a lead. You need to expand on why that matters to a blown lead. Instead, you leave it hanging in the air. You say show me "failed first downs", but don't give me an exact definition of what it means. These are the key problems, it's impossible to know what point you are making from post to post. One post you fail to leave out drops, next post drops don't exist (And don't expand on this), following post say it isn't like Welker's drop (without expanding). There is no consistent them, you just apply arbitrary things to Peyton Manning and then fail to apply those same things to Brady. To be honest, we haven't really argued about the QBs, just your uneven way of judging two great players, which at least now you agreed was uneven.
Oh and so the record is clear, I think Brady is a good postseason QB post 2004. I think he has had below average, average, and above average games but they really haven't directly tied to his team's success in the playoffs, so I also disagree with how the OP reached the conclusion that Brady is a bad postseason QB post 2004, not just the actual statement. If you judge him versus the raised expectations, I could buy the conclusion a bit more, but judge him just on his play versus the play of every other postseason QB in the that time frame and I consider him good.
I don't know every dropped pass, I don't even know the circumstances of that clip, instead of bashing me how about you show some context? what was the situation? and that was not an easy catch, neither was Welker's but he didn't have a hand in his face. if they get a 1st down at Ind 2006 the game is not over, there is still time for Indy to get a stop and get the ball back w/ enough time trailing only by 3 at the time. In the last SB he failed to get a 1st down which basically would have ended it BUT Welker should have caught that ball. He played poorly in that game w/o a doubt, I am not saying he was great and it was everyone else's fault, he gets his share of the blame but his failures are not as spectacular as manning. He's never had 14 STs pts and lost a game, he's never had the gifts manning got in the '05 Pitt game and lost a game, he's never thrown 2 RZ INTs in a 4 pt loss, he's never been shut out, etc... Putting this argument aside, you are one of my favorite posters here. You and Murrell are my favorite guys to debate w/ b/c you do know your stuff. That doesn't mean I agree but even though I may not show it I do see your point of view.
