It'd be easy to try to defend Stephen Hill if he gave us a reason to defend him in that he actually showed some promise outside of catching in the basket passes and running straight line as Br4dway suggested earlier. Receivers need to show some promise even if they are unable to put it all together for the first couple years. The problem with Hill is that he shows no capability of going to up or going out to get a ball. The guy defending earlier posted an article noting that backshoulder throws would've been perfect on some plays in which Stephen Hill was open. The problem is that receivers need to be able to stop on a dime and contort their body and use their arms! Hill uses his shoulder to trap the ball against his body most of the time rather than extend his body for the ball. Another problem is the fact that everyone is hung up on the intangibles. Is he 6'4" with a 4.3 40 yard dash time? Yep. Does he play like that? Nope, Hill looks like he runs a 4.5-4.6 on the field and has no sense of being able to create some separation between him and a corner. Whether that's using your body to box out a defender (including arm extension), or fighting with them over a 50-50 jump ball. I'd give 5'8" Tim Jennings on the Bears a much better chance of getting a jump ball then Hill and this is simply by what is seen on a week to week basis on the field. It's true that no receiver is producing. Maybe because we have a talentless receiving corps? I'd rather have David Nelson at this point than Stephen Hill. Nelson at least tries to go get the ball to help his quarterback out. Hill needs Peyton Manning 50 yard bombs against below average cornerbacks to have an sign of life.
It's difficult to have a reasonable conversation with someone who considers SOME production the same thing as NO production. The FACT is that Greg Salas has done much more for the Jets over the past 6 games than Stephen Hill. That's a fact, not an opinion. Now go put your Stephen Hill Jets chant on loop while you dream about him being Megatron.
P.S. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kQWb4NXvJc This Stephen Hill "ultimate highlight type" outlines what I'm really talking about. Outside of a couple plays, Hill is catching the ball with his body or cupping it against his body on great throws.
Way too many words. The ball HITS him in the shaggin numbers, WHY can't he catch it? If you a basing official drops as hitting hands only and want to ignore the amount of catchable balls he hasn't been close to catching then that's up to you. Barcs thinks I should be a scout, but honestly you don't need to be in this case :wink: If this kid is here next year and turns his crummy ass around, fantastic! But I'm not holding my breath. Yeah yeah yeah he has all the physical tools...except hands apparently, pretty much a key skill for a receiver don't you think.
Well, That's really interesting since he's only been on the team for 4 games, He has 3x the amount of targets Hill has in those 4 games, I can't find the stats at the moment for throw locations but I can say with pretty good confidence that Salas' receptions have come out of the slot and not on the outside. Geno has had issues all season connecting with WR's on the outside which is where Hill predominantly plays. Saying Salas and Nelson being "productive" in the slot and comparing that to Hill not getting any targets on the outside is not an apples to apples comparison. There's also the fact that Hill is more often then not getting the #1 CB from the opposing defense where Salas would be seeing the nickle corner. All I'm saying is there's more to Stephen Hill not "producing" then just him being a shitty WR. Cause he isn't, He's not good right now, But he's got the potential to be great. And I still think he's going to end up a productive WR for us. Regardless of all of this, There's absolutely NO REASON to try and write him off now and cut him like some of you guys are calling for. He's still young and learning. I don't understand with the infatuation the SOJF have with being the quickest to consider someone a bust or call one of our guys a shitty player. What the hell is the benefit? Does all this make you feel better about yourself? Or what do you gain from hating someone on the Jets so much. It's not like he's taking snaps from people who deserve it more, There's no other WRs on the team.
Do you have a particular example you're talking about of the ball hitting him in the "Shaggin numbers"?
If I could be arsed I'd post pics, but I can't. But they are available if you search on google. I did post pics somewhere in another thread. I don't bag on a player without just cause and think I've seen enough. You like him and think he can get better, I like him but think he won't. So what we're talking about here is his potential value, thus far not a lot of return
All of them are producing more then Hill. Every pass thrown Hills way he has a DB literally all up in his back pocket. He cant run routes besides a go route if his life depended on it. The rare times that he may appear to be open is most likely only seems that way because the safety/DB are reading Genos eyes and moving away and cheating to the nearest receiver. Its pretty sad that out of how bad this receiving group is, that Hill cant at least stand out and be good for a few catches a game. Its not all on Geno either.
This may be the case but that's because of the choices that are made by the QB. If you go back to page 2 I copied a post from an earlier thread where I described 5 pass plays Stephen Hill is open and ignored during Sunday's game. Again I ask if you're going to jump in to this discussion with "Stephen Hill Sucks" that you back it up with particular plays or examples that I can then look into myself and make an informed decision,.. I took the time to research and find plays where he was open and ignored, Find me some to make me wrong.
Exactly the case. Makes no sense everyone saying to turn around and cut our WR with the most potential because our QB currently is the bottom of the barrel. Doesn't make any sense. That would be like saying we should cut all 3 of our RB's cause the our LG sucks.
How ironic... our LG (Winters) has shown plenty of potential. Hey, if Hill had someone like Brady or P Manning throwing to him to make all these mistakes, you think he'd be on their team?
I will have to back Ajitator on this one guys, I agree that Hill has to iron out some wrinkles in his development, however I, like all of you, have watched every jet game this season, a lot of his lack if production comes from Geno not making his reads quickly enough, and not making the right adjustments at the line if scrimmage. The Pitt game has an excellent example of Hill streaking past Troy and the one thing Geno is supposedly good at, the deep ball, he overthrew a wide open man. In the same game hill made a great catch down the sideline and was served by TP, he still hung on. When Rex gets fired, and Idzik brings in the OC from Seattle to be the next HC of the jets, I believe Hill will show that he belongs.
Tough to really give Hill too much shit simply because the offensive staff clearly doesn't even try to make Hill a factor. No screens/bunch formation easy releases or deep shots to him when the safety is over the middle. Is he even targeted any more? I just can't judge him as harshly as some of you since I don't even see him get the targets.
I posted the following in the milk carton status thread and it's worth repeating. In this offense Hill is pretty much useless. We need WRs that are fluent in the entire route tree, and good after the catch. Stephen Hill is not that now nor do I think he will ever be. With Kaepernick at the helm, the 49ers moved away from the classic WCO and went to a pistol offense but with more vertical strikes of play action. Watching the 49ers offense this year, I can't help but to think how perfect Hill would be in their offense. They terribly miss what Randy Moss did for them last year. Last year they would trot out the aging Moss simply to blow the top off the defense with 9 routes. They rarely looked his way but it opened up the middle of the field for Crabtree and Davis as safeties still respected his speed. They are desperately missing that this year. Hill would provide them that. When the would take their shot, Kaepernick has the gun to get it there. Hill is also an excellent blocker at the position, which goes in perfect with the 49ers power running game.
Do some of you even watch Hill? I have seen him get open multiple times throughout the season only to be neglected by Geno in favor of his "Safety" reads or check downs. Geno appears to be blatantly ignoring Hill in games. Also Hill was much more productive in the beginning of the season when the offense was willing to actually take shots down the field like in week 3 against Buffalo.
Reasons he sucks(and isnt an NFL player..will be out of the league within 2 years imo): 1. He cannot get off of the LOS. The second a CB gets his hands on Hill's chest he's taken out of the play. 2. For as fast as he is in a straight line, he's just as slow in his quick/sudden movements-which are crucial for an NFL wideout. His shuttle run was poor at the combine if memory serves. 3. He's not a natural WR. Unless the ball is perfectly placed in his hands on a go route(where he isnt jammed)- he's not making the catch. 4. Doesnt fight for the ball in the air. 5. Doesnt understand the game. Constantly caught running with his head down when the QB is under pressure. Doesnt come back on the football either.
Shown potential? He's had one good game. Other than that, he's been absolute shit in the run and pass pro. Our O-line has been affected by how terrible Winters and Colon have been; Brick, Mangold, and Howard have been covering for those guys all season and despite that, Howard is having a very solid season (can't say the same about Mangold and Brick). If Ivory ran behind an average line, he'd be over 1000 yards already. 75% of his yards are after contact. We've given up the second most sacks in the league, mostly because Geno holds the ball too long and we are getting rushed right up the middle and can't handle it. The fact that you can say Winters has shown promise and Hill hasn't is all I need to see...
VG had freakish athletic ability as well. The chances that all-of-a-sudden a guy that has stone hands, alligator arms and may or may not be afraid of contact at this point 'getting it' is slim and none... Shit, I would be OK if he returned kicks, but that won't work too well either, because he has ball security issues as well...
