Why does Rex's opinion carry more weight? I am sure we could fine a ton that say Brady and a ton that say Manning. We are giving our opinions, I back mine up and you guys hurl insults. I want to win, no one has done more w/ less than Brady and no one has done less w/ more than peyton. It's too bad Peyton and Eli couldn't combine - Peyton to get his team to the playoffs and Eli to play well enough to win SBs.
Its too bad Peyton couldnt work with a HOF coach and have a top 5 defense to help him win 3 SBs as hes still coming into his own. Brady truly had nothing to work with. Just complimentary football. Rexs opinion carries more weight because he wasnt on the same team as either. He is neutral.
you mean the HOF coach that was fired in Cle then was 5-13 w/ NE before Brady rescued his career? The man who had ONE career playoff app and ONE career playoff win pre-Brady? You do know Tony Dungy is going to make the Hall of Fame, right? and you do know Tony made a title game w/ Shaun King at QB, right? You do know Brady's "top 5" Ds allowed more postseason points than the supposedly crappy Manning Colt's Ds, right? Brady made a title game w/ Jabar Gaffney and reche Caldwell as his top weapons. Let that sink in.
Yes that guy from Cleveland. Tony Dungy is a fraud who rode Monte Kiffins coat tails in Tampa and failed to replicate or find players to fit that defense when he brought it over to Indy. He then rode Peytons coat tails to a title. They won the one year they played complimentary football because thats what it takes. Yeah, Brady made the title game with trash WRs because that team as a whole was balanced. Sort of like how the Jets made two title gms with Mark Crapchez at QB. Complimentary football. Im glad we are doing this, its been a slow day at work.
That fraud left Kiffin and won a SB in Indy w/ a QB that had never won a playoff game before he got there. Complimentary? the D dominated that postseason as Peyton threw 3 TDs and 7 INTs. Again, Brady NE D's have allowed less PPG in postseason than Manning Colts Ds.
2001 NE beat Oakland 16-13, Pittsburgh 24-17 (Bledsoe threw their only passing TD) and St Louis 20-17. Indy did not make the playoffs. 2002 NE missed playoffs and Indy lost to the Jets 41-0. 2003 Indy beat Baltimore 41-10. Then beat KC 38-31, then lost to NE 24-14.. 2003 NE beat TEN 17-14 and Indy 24-14. Then Carolina 32-29 2004 Indy beat Denver 49-24, then lost to NE 20-3 2004 NE beat Indy 20-3, Pittsburgh 41-27, Philly 24-21. Thats an avg of 17.2 ppg allowed by NE and 25 ppg allowed by Indy between 01-04. You are mistaken.
I say this over and over again, so I'll repeat myself again, playoff record is not a QB stat. We have seen over the last 10-15 years that a great QB can consistently get their team to the playoffs and even do so by hiding weak parts on their team, but come playoff time you need a complete team effort to win playoff games and eventually a SB. That's why the NE offense under Brady can average 13 points in regulation in their playoff run with Brady and win the SB in 2001 (13 in 4 Q vs OAK, 13 in 4 Q vs STL). 13 points in regulation! 10 of those 13 Super Bowl points started in STL territory too because of defensive turnovers. And the defense had a pick 6. It's why Big Ben won the SB throwing for less that 50%, 0 TDs, 2 INT, and less than 150 yards and win. It's why Flacco won a playoff game throwing for 34 yards and completing 4 passes. It's why Brees lost a playoff game throwing for 462 yards, 4 TDs, 2 INTs, and over 60%. He helped his offense get a 1 point lead with 4:11 left and then a 3 point lead with 1:48 left. It's why Peyton lost playoff games where his defense had 7 point lead with 1:05 left 2 point lead with 45 seconds left 3 point lead with 1:48 left 3 point lead with 10:00 left (I only include this because it was Billy Volek leading the comeback) And he also lost two games where his FG kicker could tie the game with less than 30 seconds left and missed. It's why Alex Smith is 1-0 vs Brees in the playoffs, Mark Sanchez 1-0 vs Tom Brady, Joe Flacco 2-1 vs Tom Brady, Jake Plummer 1-0 vs Tom Brady, Eli Manning 2-0 vs Tom Brady, Eli Manning 2-0 vs Aaron Rodgers, etc etc. It's a team stat, not a QB stat. If it was a QB stat, all these records should be reversed. If we focus on Tom Brady only, we can see more clearly it's a team stat. If Adam Vinateri misses again OAK and misses against TEN, Brady could have started his playoff career off as 0-2 and only 1 SB. If Brady's defense can make a stop either time vs the Giants, Brady could have 5 Super Bowls. Brady is a much better QB compared to his peers from 2007 onwards than he was from 2001-2006, but has 0 Super Bowls to show for that and playoff losses to Sanchez, Flacco, and Eli to show for it. Quick example of how a team aspect plays into it, in Brady's first 3 SBs the Pats started 7 drives in opponenet's territory and scored 5 times. In Brady's two most recent SB losses, they started 0 drives in NYG territory. The playoffs are much more than a QB stat, but unfortunately that's not what people want to hear. The other sport where playoffs/rings are brought is basketball ("HE HAS 6 RINGS IT'S THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS"), a sport where 10-12 players dress and play a game and players play offense and defense, where a top player can stop another top player, and where the top players play around 40/48 possible minutes in the game on both offense and defense and "special teams" if we think of special team as transition I guess. End of the day, it's hard to judge QBs within a generation like Brady and Peyton and it's even harder to judge QBs outside of their generations. I personally have Peyton as a better QB over his career than Brady because I think Peyton has had a better career at playing the QB position and throwing the ball. I think Brady has been on better overall team for most of his career but for the last 5-6 years has been playing as good and at times better than Peyton. Where as before the last 5-6 years, Peyton was clearly outplaying Brady and you even had players like Brooks, Gannon, Green, having a year or two where they easily outplayed Brady. But I also can see why and acknowledge why people might have Brady as a slightly better QB over his career than P. Manning.
Btw '01-'04? who said btw '01-'04? I said NE D's w/ Brady vs. Indy D's w/ Peyton. Pts allowed in regulation: Indy: '99: 19 '00: 17 '02: 41 '03: 10, 24, 14 '04: 24, 20 '05: 21 '06: 8, 6, 27, 10 '07: 28 '08: 17 '09: 3, 17, 24 '10: 17 19 games, 347 pts, 18.2 PPG NE: '01: 13, 17, 17 '03: 14, 14, 29 '04: 3, 27, 21 '05: 3, 27 '06: 16, 21, 38 '07: 20, 12, 17 '09: 33 '10: 28 '11: 10, 20, 19 '12: 28, 28 24 games, 475 pts, 19.8 PPG
That's nice in theory. I'll take the "blown leads" Baltimore at Denver 2012: 7 pt lead w/ 1:05 left. He could have ended the game w/ a 1st down(like ben did to us), right? He was given TWO STs TDs. he threw an INT for a TD(which is a major reason Bal had a chance) and in total had 3 TOs directly lead to 17 pts in a 3 pt game including setting up the GW FG. NY Jets at Indy 2010: 2 pt lead w/ :45 secs left. He could have ended the game w/ a 1st down(like Ben did to us) but set up a 50+ yd FG for his K(who, luckily for him made it) then gave the ball to crappy Sanchez w/ under a min left. Indy at SD 2008: 3 pt lead w/ 1:48 left. Another whopping lead, he needed to get ONE 1st down on the previous possession as SD only had 1 TO left. He failed and took a sack on 3rd down at the Indy 1 setting up SD at the Indy 38 w/ just under 2 mins left and needing 3 to tie. SD at Indy 2007: 3 pt lead w/ 10 mins left. Up 10-7 latre 1st half at SD 35 w/ a 2nd and 10 throws INT that cost them at least 3 pts(would have been an INT for TD if not for a penalty on SD). Trailing 14-10, 3rd and G at SD 3 throws INT costing Indy another 3-7 pts. Volke led the GW TD(Rivers is a choker). peyton then had TWO possessions to win the game and failed. Just blindly posting that info makes it look for Peyton but when you look at exactly what happened you see he was the main culprit in each of those playoff losses. Alex Smith beat Brees b/c he led his O to 36 pts. Brees led his O to 32, Peyton has led his O's to more than 21 pts in a playoff game ONE time- the 28-24 home loss to SD where he threw 2 deep INTs costing his team at least 6 pts in a 4 pt loss. Sanchez beat Brady's Pats b/c he played better than Brady. Flacco outplayed Brady Peyton Manning has had SB caliber talent around him basically since day 1 and he continually fails in postseason. 1999: w/ bye and 2 seed leads O to 9 pts in competitive portion of game, leads team to garbage time TD down 10 late to make it look competitive. Main culprit though we can give him a pass since it was first playoff start. 2000: leads O to 3 pts last 3 qtrs. of game, loses to one of the biggest choking Ds of all time. 2002: everyone stunk but it's possible to win a game allowing 41 pts(like Ari did beating GB in 2009), it's impossible to win a game scoring ZERO pts. 2003: Throws 4 INTs in 24-14 loss at NE, Polian complains to league about NE DBs mugging Indy WRs so that was the excuse so let's fast forward to... ...2004: after new rule change leads O to THREE pts in playoff loss at NE 2005: #1 seed w/ a bye. After getting multiple gifts cannot even get game to OT. Replay wrongly overturns Polamalu INT. W/ Pitt up 21-10 w/ 5 1/2 mins to play Peyton is picked off by Troy which would have set up Pitt in Indy territory up 11 w/ 5 1/2 to play. if that wasn't enough after turning it over on downs deep in their territory trailing by 3 Pitt fumbles running out the clock and returns it near midfield. peyton had 1 minute left and all 3 TOs, he had 2nd AND 3rd and 2 at the Pitt 28 but instead of getting closer for his shaky K(the kicking version of peyton) he takes 2 shots to the EZ and settles on a 46 yarder which they missed but it was all the kickers fault!:rofl2: 2006: won SB in postseason where he threw 3 TDs and 7 INTs. D dominated that postseason, beat Chiefs team w/ no O, Bal team w/ no O, NE where Brady's top 2 weapons were Jabar Gaffney and reche Caldwell and needed a great comeback to beat them at home(he had ONE great HALF that postseason- 2nd half vs. NE) and Rex Grossman led Bears. perfect storm for his only title. 2007: bye and home game, throws 2 INts that cost his team at least 6 pts in 4 pt loss. 2008: leads O to 7 pts in last 3 qtrs. where SD blew coverage and wayne was wide open for 70 yd TD. Needed one 1st down to end game, instead tackes sack at 1 yd line setting up SD for easy game tying FG drive to send to OT. 2009: leads high powered O to 7 pts in last 3 qtrs. w/ game on the line and Indy moving the ball to tie it down 7 throws INT for TD to end all hopes. 2010: leads high powered O to just 16 pts, trailing 14-13 gets team into FG range for LONG FG, one 1st down and his K would have had an easier attempt and would have guaranteed we wouldn't have had time to win game. Gives "crappy" Mark Sanchez chance and he does what Peyton couldn't do in 2005 vs. Pitt- sets up shaky K for CHIP SHOT FG to win game. 2012: Handed FOURTEEN free pts by STs. Has 3 TOs directly leading to 17 pts in 3 pt OT loss including INT for TD AND INT to set up GW FG in OT. But yeah it was the fault of everyone else.
I did. They were winning titles because of complete team balance. They havent been able to finish the deal since 04 because they havent been playing complimentary football. Between 01-04 NE defense was outstanding, especially in the playoffs. It takes a complete team to win the Super Bowl, thats why Brady got 3 when he was a pissant, and none since he became all-world.
The NE D was outstanding in ONE of those postseasons- the 2001 one though playing the raiders in snow then facing Kordell Stewart helped and they did blow an historic 4th qtr lead in the SB becoming the first team to blow a 14 pt 4th qtr lead in a SB. 2003 they allowed 19 4th qtr pts http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/bill-belichicks-legacy-needs-hug/6553/ That "complete team" was 5-11 in 2000 and started 0-2 in 2001 including losing to a bad Bengal team then magically they started winning the second Brady became the starter. Manning's SB title year: D allowed 12.75 PPG in postseason Brady's 3 SB title years: 2001: 15.7 2003: 19 2004: 17
So whats your point? I said Colts D was good in 2006, the one yr they played balanced football they won the SB. 2000 team record has nothing to do with their playing balanced football 01-04. Yes, NE D was outstanding in 03, 04 playoffs. The D allowed just 14 pts the first two rds, then the offense bailed them out in the Super Bowl. They played complimentary football. You really think NE D in 04 wasnt outstanding? Holding Indy to 3 pts. Then cockslapping PIT who tacked on pts in garbage time and Rodney Harrison had a pick six. He then sealed the SB win with an interception. You can point to contribution from all three phases during their title years. Thats why they won. Since then weve seen their D crumble when it matters most.
hehe, i see junc-a-mania is running wild again on this hot topic of peyton manning being overrated. please dont go out there on sites making hte rest of us jets fans look like jackasses. btw, i dont really think you can say peyton manning choked EVERY postseason there juncy oh wait thats right, your junc even the superbowl win was a choke show. mustve been the defense on that LOADED team.
And this is why it gets pointless to argue with you about Manning. You really don't read anything people write and just post your stock answers that clearly show the name on the jersey affects how your rate what he does. Please find where I said it was the fault of everyone else. I never said that but in your fantasy world, that's what I said because you don't feel like addressing any points, you want to argue a fictional point I never even wrote down in my post. If you read my post without deciding what your response was first, you would have read I was listing where his defense gave up late leads. Since that is a fact, you then go and list almost every playoff game Peyton has played in. Why, I don't know, because his defense still gave up those leads. The leads could have been gotten by all ST and D return points, but the defense would still have given up a late lead. That's what I said I would list, that's what I listed. In your fantasy world (where Matt Schaub is a great fantasy QB :grin I said "nothing is Peyton's fault", even though if you read my post (something I still don't think you did as you will see in a couple sentences) I never said that. Or somewhere I said it's all the kickers fault? Never said that either, but again in your fantasy world you are arguing someone who says these thing. Why I get to be the real life person who supposedly said this, who knows how I got that short end of the stick. It's funny, when I bring up the point of explaining why playoff wins and SB rings are not a QB stat, you never ever explain why it is a relevant QB stat. I really haven't seen anyone address that point. When we break down my post I have: I have one section on P. Manning only, one section with him and Brady, and 8 other sections. The post I just quoted from you has 19 points on P. Manning. You quoted my whole post too, so I assume your 19 points on Peyton are in response to my whole post where I mention him twice and you don't want to respond to anything else I posted. This is why I don't think you read my post, the basis of it wasn't even focused on Peyton's playoff career, but that's the only thing you saw. Your post, it doesn't address why playoff stats and SB rings are so important in a QB discussion. See I like when people argue, but the arguments need to be on point. Like many people think Brady is a better QB because he had one of the most dominant QB seasons ever (not ending in a SB win :wink, he protects the ball incredibly well, his short passing game is better than Manning's, and Brady is as good at hurrying up/forcing mismatches, and one of the best if not best QB ever on 3rd and 1 or 4th and 1 sneaks. He's as close you can get to automatic in those short yardage situations. I understand when people say that's why Brady is better. I don't agree, but it makes a lot more sense than when people jump straight to "clutch" or the "it factor" or "3 rings it's the only thing that matters". But anyways it's funny because Brady is considered clutch for his 2001 SB run, but Eli Manning is considered lucky for his 2007 SB run, even though both defenses stopped one of the greatest offensive showcases of that era in the SB, and Eli lead his offense to more SB points than Brady (1 more) and Eli's 3 scoring drives started inside his own 25 (FG, TD, TD) while Brady's 3 scoring drive started at the Ram 40, 33, and his own 17 (FG). NE defense in 2001 gave up net total of 10 points, because they gave up 17 but scored 7. They even set up 2 drives in STL territory and in total forced 3 TOs. The NYG defense gave up 14 points, forced 1 turnover, and set up one drive in NE territory on the NE 49 with 10 seconds left in the first half. It's funny how for every other position in the NFL, we don't use rings or playoff wins to judge them. We judge these players based on their play and how they play their position vs their peers. You still come up with similar problems like Revis never had the pass rush corner X has, so Revis has to do more and etc etc. But rings and playoff wins never come up in the discussion. While QBs do influence the game more so than other positions, in my opinion, they don't influence it enough where we can still assign them team accomplishments. Let's take an extreme example, if a QB scores every time he touches the ball, he can still lose the game if a defense lets up a score every single the other team touches the ball. Compare that to an NHL goalie, if he stops every shot on goal, the worst thing that can happen is an endless tie if the opposing goalie does the same thing. There is no way for a goalie to lose a game if he does his job perfectly, but there is a way for a QB to do so. While the QB has a greater influence than a corner, he doesn't control enough to single handedly decide the outcome of a game. Another example to use is FG kickers. Kickers touch the ball at most around 10 times a game including kickoffs, and about 5 times max when kicking FGs. Yet that 1 kick at an end of the game will decide if their team wins or loses. There is literally nothing a QB can do once that kicker goes out there to kick (unless you are Romo :wink:.) but that kicker decides the outcome of the game, win or lose. The QB again has no influnce once the kicker is out there, so another siutation where again I don't see how that kicker making/missing a kick means we then assign a QB a playoff W or L. Now granted, Brady is considered clutch and Eli lucky, but Brady has never led his team to a GW TD drive in the final two minutes of a playoff game, something Eli has done both times in his SBs. In fact, even the unclutch Peyton Manning has done it once at least, hell even Flacco has done it too. Big Ben also. Am I serious with this point, maybe or maybe not. But what's the point of bringing a valid point in a discussion when you aren't even going to read this and go on and on about Peyton Manning and pretend I said nothing is his fault. But to end my post and give my overall opinion, in my short 15-20 years of wathcing football Peyton Manning overall has played the QB position better than any other QB I have watched. The Patriots SB teams from 01-04 were some of the best overall teams I have seen regarding play and depth, including Brady. Bill B. is one of the best coaches I have seen. Brady's INT % doesn't become incredibly low, his Y/A incredibly high, and overall become a top QB in history without some help from coaching. Bill has other shortcoming, more GM related in my mind, but offensively he deserves a ton of credit. To tack onto what I have seen, Bucs D one of the best ever, Vick one of the most electrifying players, Reed one of the best safeties, Revis best corner, TO best celebrations, ARZ/Pitt one of the best SB ever, Pitt/SEA one of the worst SBs ever, Falcons/Seahawks and Saints/49ers one of the best playoff games, Dante Hall and Devin Hester one of the best returning years ever. So you get a time frame of what I mean when I say best ever of what I have seen. I can't compare Revis to Sanders, Vick to Tarkenton or Cunningham, Manning to Marino/Montana/etc, Bucs to Bears, etc. So end of the day, if you can find where I blame everyone but Peyton Manning in my last post, please point it out so I can correct my mistake. You won't find it because you made it up. I will give you this, Brady wipes the floor clean with Peyton Manning as a postseason punter. :rofl:
Wait a second? I thought this would be a good punt? Or is that only a Mark Sanchez rule again. Once again, talking about both sides of his mouth. No credibility.
Whoa dude, you're talkin about a guy that's 4-2 in the playoffs (on the road) with a 200 yard game under his belt, plus accurate punting ability. Maybe one day Manning will get there, who knows, but until then Sanchez remains clutcher. 0 Super Bowls > 1 Super Bowl.
My point is the Colts Ds w/ Manning were better than the Pats Ds w/ Brady. Everyone uses the defense excuse but the reason NE made 5 Sbs and won 3 and Indy made 2 and won 1 was b/c of the QBs not the defenses. Those Ds often choked in big games only to be rescued by Brady. Outstanding in 2003 and 2004 playoffs? giving up 19 4th qtr pts and almost blowing the SB is outstanding? holding the greatest choker of this generation to 3 pts is something to crow about? our D SHUT THEM OUT. The D contributed but they won b/c of the QB. Here to not discuss the topics and insult those of us that know the game better than you again? Do you contribute in any way to this board in a positive manner?
Call it pointless all you want but clearly YOU are not reading. You were making excuses for those losses, I discussed what actually happened. AGAIN, for the billionth time on this board. I don't evaluate based strictly off of postseason records but I do weigh postseason play heavily. If Peyton didn't have loaded teams since day 1 and was losing 35-30 or doing all he could I'd give him a pass but do you know how many PPG his loaded O's have scored in playoff losses? 14.8 PPG in playoff losses No how many times he has led his O's to 20 or more pts in playoff losses/ TWO times. Know what happened in those 2 games? One was a 4 pt loss where 2 RZ INTs cost his team at least 6 pts. The other his STs scored 14 pts for him and he STILL couldn't win. BOTH games were played at HOME! Did Eli's D blow a 14 pt 4th qtr lead in either SB? Did he take over inside his 20 w just over a minute left and no TOs? The Qbs job is to win, all the fantasy stuff doesn't matter. Some QBs don't have the talent to win around them and it isn't their fault, that has NEVER been an issue for Peyton. Ho was Bill Belichick doing before Brady stepped on the field? isn't it amazing how those teams instantly became great when Brady took over and BB instantly became a great HC? Manning had MORE talent, had great coaching and an easier division yet has 3 less SB apps and 2 less SB wins. The quote you posted was in regards to you making excuses for peyton.
