Oh, so we don't have to actually write something for you to be justified in proclaiming that we believe it? So, you can just assign to us any opinions that you wish to dispute? Fascinating.
There's a larger point here, junc. What does it say about the current state of Mark's career that his most ardent and fanatical supporters feel the need to go back and pontificate about painfully mediocre seasons (and playoff games) that he had TWO, THREE, AND FOUR YEARS AGO???? Heck, even if his performances in 2009 and 2010 weren't mediocre (they were), wouldn't the fact that you felt compelled to rely on them be a pretty good indication of where Mark really stands? I'm suddenly reminded about seeing the forest through the trees.
1. If you didn't realize yet, there are two kind of logic at work here. First kind is the common logic that most people adhere to. Second kind is called homer logic. Two are mutually exclusive, and are incompatible by default. 2. Like I said in the previous posting, I think Ryan's defense is good for 75 QBR on average. With that in mind, look at the annual stat of Mark Sanchez. His QBR goes like: 63 - 75 - 78 - 67. Don't let the third 78 fool you. It is more of an artifact of 26 TD pass he had - this does mean he was very effective in the end zone, but as a whole, that number doesn't even do justice to the travesty he has caused all year long. One or two drops in the end zone, and you get sub-70 QBR again. 3. So, compare that with 75 QBR barometer I suggested for Ryan's defense. Sanchez's rookie year is an outlier, but also tells you why that team only garnered 9 wins, when they could win a lot more. If Sanchez was good for below-average 75 QBR, Jets could easily win 2 or 3 games more. Second year was the year Jets went 11-5. Of course, Jets shouldn't have won that much given the QB's performance. It goes on to show that Jets still shielded Sanchez from making dumb fuck mistakes that year as well. By the third year, Sanchez has to earn his keep; or, in more direct terms, Jets cannot shield him any more. They have lost a lot of offensive talents around Sanchez, and Sanchez has to step up. He had two years of on-the-fly training if anything. And 75 QBR gives you a fair 8-8 record, as anyone would expect. 4. Last year? Sanchez's performance dipped below 75 QBR on annual basis, but Jets didn't have the offensive resources or defensive resources to bail him out. Jets went 6-10. Fair and square. ----------------------------------------------------------- But stats are useless without context, right? Well. QBR differential IS everything about context. It gives you a very good idea about how each team played with context to each other. In that regard, we all see how deficient Sanchez has been all along throughout the years.
Was at camp today. Geno had a better day. Mark cannot afford days like today. He had a ton of erratic throws - even over threw Gates and pegged Mangold in the head 25 yards up field.
If you forgot already: THAT is the normal Mark Sanchez we all came to know and love. Expect more of that.
Geno had an amazing pass up the left sideline. It was at least 45 yards in the air and lofted perfectly over the receiver's left shoulder for a TD. There were only a few times today the crowd clapped and that was one of them. Sanchez fumbled 3 times but he was dealing with the backup center.
Let's all at least give Junc the benefit of the doubt, since he's being so unmercifully attacked. He's almost now the sole defender (rightfully so), but he certainly deserves the floor.
junc has actually given ground to people on this forum. The reason people think he hasn't is that he prefers to argue with other people who do not give any ground. I've gotten him to admit many inconsistencies in Sanchez' past. And also on other points. He is only unreasonable in the face of unreasonability. The problem with NFL forums is the knee-jerk mentality, the instant-gratification and lack of objectivity. And that shit extends past football forums, but I won't go into it aside from stating that it is something that our society is afflicted with. I see that shit and I try to go heavy on objectivity. junc sees it and takes the best parts of the opposite argument and tries to create a balance between knee-jerk and patience on the entire forum, even if he may be the only factor of patience in a 20 person argument. While I don't agree with his philosophy, I can appreciate it, and also can appreciate the persistence it takes to try to achieve it. And aside from poking fun at people that have outright insulted him, he has been a pretty respectable and polite guy. Dude gets a bad rap.
1. He is respectable and polite. I have realized that a bit too late - for now, I try to keep things civil if I ever get to have a say or two. 2. That said, I don't think the reactions with Sanchez is knee-jerk reaction by any stretch. Some do show that - I know I am guilty of that for a fair amount of time - but by now, the evidences are piling on, and it is more than clear that Sanchez experiment has failed. 3. One of the reasons I really don't like the way junc debates is because I, by nature, try to keep things contained. Junc always branches off to different topic while the discussion at hand is not complete. What's worse, if I decide not to bother with the branched off topic, he will declare his victory over nothing. I don't see how that's conducive to any constructive discussion/debate/whatever you call it. Hell, he even employs double standard when it comes to football stats. I don't find debate with him engaging or interesting at all.
I'm not talking about every reaction about Sanchez. I'm talking about the people that want to oversimplify everything to hug onto their overt emotional reactions. He will reply to those guys, and then the people that have arguments that aren't knee-jerk reactions will see what he is posting to the dumbasses and we'll take offense to the extreme angle and jump into the fray. That's exactly how half of a forum ends up arguing against him. As far as the rest of it... I don't like when people keep an argument contained with this sport. How many times alone have you yourself argued the team aspect of the sport? You can disagree with his point without disagreeing with branched arguments. He's not always right. But it's not impossible to corner him if you can keep up. And I know he will deny your victory. Knowing you won is better than junc conceding the win. He's still a good guy.
You're preaching to the choir . . . This is all fair and accurate . . . Junc has ignored/distorted the relevance of Sanchez's lackluster QBR before . . . I'm sure he'll be blindly doing it again, shortly.
I'd have infinitely more respect for him if he didn't go out of his way to label himself as "fair" and "objective" while simultaneously telling people who disagree with him that they "don't understand the game". That's just arrogant and insecure. It's one thing to be the loony guy telling everyone that 2+2 = 7 . . . It's another thing, entirely, to be doing it while also adding that your detractors don't truly understand Math.
Nahh there's potential at the QB position, it's just what the ceiling is on Sanchez and Geno. From the preseason we at least have seen glimpses of good Sanchez, why we drafted him. We haven't see that since probably the 1st NE game of last year? We haven't seen that consistently since the beginning of 2011 end of 2010 probably. That's progress forward, but probably the only way to go is up from the play last year. The turnovers and wasted points are frustrating though and that's what you are focusing on I guess. I think the QB situation can be salved to be decent enough for this team to get to 8-8. It all comes back to those turnovers and wasted opportunities though, which have not looked good this preseason so far.
1. Frankly I can't care less about that 'victory' part. The problem with junc is that, I will usually move on to the next subject once I consider the debate complete. Not only he does not acknowledge that, but brings the points that I have spent so much time disproving - back to square one. Do that a few times. I'm done with arguing over anything in that capacity. 2. But at the core, I know he's a good guy. I have taken unnecessary shots at him before - for which I duly regret. By now, I have learned to agree to disagree with him, and move on. 3. I cannot say it was all that bad - there are more occasions where I had to look more closely than I usually would have. It did me some good more or less. Just - I don't know if I want to go to that extent just to have some internet debate. [LOL]
It is quite clear that their will always be people like Hobbes and Junc etc., that no matter the incrediblely historically bad numbers that SANCHEZ puts up, that they will always try to find something positive in his performances and then lean on those (like his playoff wins), for what seems like eternity. SANCHEZ at his very best is very mediocre, and when "normal", he is abysmal, and when I look around the league and see almost every team have a FRANCHISE type QB, and we have SANCHEZ, well this puts us at a complete disadvantage basically every week. A FRNCHISE QB like Manning, Brady, Luck, Wilson, RGIII etc. can take what looks like a poor or mediocre team and carry them, and the JETS quite frankly have not had a FRANCHISE QB since possibly NAMATH. TODD was good but not great, O'brien was good but not great, and PENNINGTON was very good but not great. We have waited basically over 40 years since JOEWILLIE to have that guy behind center, and to have to day in and day out argue the good and bad of quite frankly, a very poor QB like SANCHEZ really just makes a fan like me hope they get the number #1 draft pick, to get a guy like BRIDGEWATER, or HUNDLEY, or MCCARRON, OR MURRAY etc. and finally be able to go toe to toe with other teams that have a FRANCHISE QB, TOO BAD!
There are about 36 guys every year that qualify for the NFL QB stats list. If you're consistently in the bottom half of that group you really don't belong in the NFL as a starting QB. Some good QB's dip down occasionally and have off-years where they don't look that good. Some bad QB's have an occasional year where they look much better than they really are and rise in the rankings for that year. Usually this is a systems and talent promotion where they catch a wave with a really good offensive system and a bunch of talent to help them shine. The off years and peak years above are very understandable. They make people like Jay Cutler and Matthew Stafford look not very good at times. They make people like Matt Cassel and Josh Freeman look much better than they really are. Valuations become a bit skewed by them. But when you have a QB who is in that bottom half EVERY year and often fairly far down in the rankings that tells you that he just does not belong as a starting QB. Mark Sanchez is one of those QB's who just looks bad every year in comparison to his peers. Occasionally he has a stat, like the 32 TD's in 2011, that stands out as oppo stat and makes you wonder. However the body of his work is bad, compared to the only thing that matters which is the work his peers do. It's not enough to be able to throw a great pass now and then. You can't look at any pass Mark Sanchez has thrown and say "that's it, this guy is an NFL QB" because very shortly thereafter he's going to do things that suggest to you that he's not an NFL QB. This isn't about what you can do now and then, it's about what you do on a regular basis. What you do on a regular basis is what shows up in the record books over time and you just can't ignore what's there.
GREAT POST! BUT the SANCHEZ apologists will continue to bring up those playoff wins etc. Your right though, the best are consistently near the top, like BRADY, MANNING, RODGERS etc, and the WORST are consistently near the bottom like SANCHEZ, GABBERT, etc.
