Cutting down? Really. You just made a mathematical argument, that defies logic... :rofl2: Percentage means, less possible attempts...possible attempts? Right, they could have forced Matt Moore to take 10 first downs to score, instead of 6? put down the crack pipe. I said above, that a shitty offense did play a part in that...but...we are talking about Schottenheimer,Matt Mulligan, and Wayne Hunter, so..as far as sanchez giving up 26 turnovers, how many sacks and long yardage situations, were they forced into. PS...in 2011, what defense gave up the most first down by penalty?...hmmm..hint it was 10 more first downs,than Sanchez gave to the other team. You know,that team effort argument you make to deflect from wins. The stat that would be more meaningful, clearly would be third downs, against posessions. Im not going into full research mode, because the hate on the QB is full on Sybil. 2011. Hunter.Mulligan.Schotty. Defense unable to carry a single game, with less than 24 points on the board, 8-8. Not to say Sanchez shares no blame, but those that act like he operated in a vaccuum, to quote our extra-chromosme phin phan, are full on retard. Go back...read the game threads. Real time observations. Not me, not Junc. But hey. Youre right. This whole thread equates to one thing. The QB taking all of the blame for what goes wrong, and getting no credit...,when it goes right. Wayne hunter never happened. Schotty, top tier OC. Matt Mulligan..great extra blocker. Yup.
Fuck him? Why? Because he's right? We've been god awful on offense as long as I can remember, due in large part to Sanchez being a gigantic bust. The delusion among our fan base is only holding the franchise back and makes us look stupid as a fan base. There's being a true fan and then there's being an unrealistic moron like Hobbes. You can be a true fan and still realize that your team has sucked.
Again, Percentages and not total attempts tell the story Hobbes. We all know that percentages tell the overall story and effectiveness, not the effectiveness in certain cherry picked instances. Again, the high number of attempts is due in large part to the offense turning the ball over A LOT, having 3 and outs A LOT, and have drives lasting 5 minutes or less A LOT. These combine to put the defense on the field for a greater amount of plays and will ALWAYS result in more 3rd down attempts as a result. And what I said was accurate, a lower percentage of successful third down conversions allowed by the defense does result in a lower number of TOTAL attempts based strictly off of the defenses performance. The lower the percentage of successful 3rd down conversions the lower the number of attempts that are the result of defensive issues. When you have a defense that has a low Percentage of third down conversions allowed but a high number of attempts then you have to look at the offense as the culprit, it can not come from any other source. That's as much of a mathematical certainty as 1+1=2. Regarding your first downs by penalty, those are included in the 32% of successful conversions the defense allowed. That 32% number still stands despite your penalty argument as those are considered successful conversions by the offense, or a failure by the defense that allows a first down. Nice try though, really. And it's not hate on the QB from my perspective, but it's love of a QB on yours clearly. I remained without judgment on Sanchez for 4 seasons, I said explicitly before the start of the 2012 season that Sanchez had to take a step up in 2012 from his performance levels of the previous 3 seasons. While people like to cry about how poorly Sanchez did in 2012 the reality is that statistically he was exactly the same QB in 2012 that he was in the previous 3 seasons. In fact 2012 was almost exactly an average Sanchez year in every regard. Now you can blame the OC if you want, but here's a secret, if it takes a top flight OC and a top flight offense in order to make your QB look average then you have a far below average QB. And to this point in time that's exactly what Sanchez has been, a below average QB. In an earlier post you asked where is the defense that Sanchez is supposed to ride to the playoffs, the answer is 2009 and 2010 defenses. And here's another secret for you son, regarding points per possession. The Jets Defense in 2011 Had the 10th best ranked defense in terms of scoring efficiency against. that is to say that per possession only 9 teams were better at preventing a scoring drives, be that a TD or Field goal. And here's the killer against your argument Hobbes, in 2011 the Jets defense had to defend against 208 drives, that was the most ANY defense in the NFL in 2011 had to defend against. now here's a hint for you Hobbes, since a drive is any time the other teams offense has the ball and the defense has no control over how often the other team gets the ball then where does the responsibility lie for all of those extra drives the Defense had to defend against? Hamster wheel turning yet? Yep, bingo, it's the offenses inability to stay on the field and thus giving the opposing team MORE possessions. More possessions leads to what Hobbes? That's right, more 3rd down attempts against the defense. And since the more time on the field against more drives will result in more points even with the 10th best percentage in preventing teams from scoring on a drive. Think about that Hobbes, you brought up the argument of percentage of drives that the Jets defense allowed scores on, and it was the 10th best ratio in the NFL. Unfortunately when your offense is putting your defense on the field more than ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE NFL You are going to give up more points overall despite the percentage. Give even the worst golfer unlimited tee offs and eventually they'll hit a hole in one. The only people who call stats "Fantasy stats" are those that don't understand statistical analysis.
And no one is saying that Sanchez is the whole problem, but he is a key problem due to the position that he plays, QB. But I don't heap praise on him for being a below average performer who has benefited from a top 5 running game and defense in his first two seasons where "he won". There is a very small handful of games I'll say he won for the Jets, or played a major role in the win, but it's a very very very small handful. The fact is Sanchez has had 4 years to show improvement in consistency and performance, 4 years in NFL terms is an eternity. The average NFL career for players who make the opening 53 man roster their rookie season is 6 years. Over 4 years a team can go from being in it's prime to being on the downside. I'm a Jets fan first and a fan of players secondly, a distant second. Sanchez has had 4 years to show something with the organization, he hasn't. He's shown glimpses of what he "could be" but for every glimpse of what he "could be" we've seen 4 examples of what he is, at least up to this point in his career. If Sanchez wins the starting job I'll root for him to do well, not because I believe in him but because he's the QB of the Jets. Do I believe in Sanchez as "The guy" at this point? No, I don't. And I will root for Geno this pre-season to win the job. But if Sanchez wins the job I will root for the team to do well, against what I see as remote odds of success this year regardless of who the QB is, but I do believe the Jets would fair better with Smith than Sanchez right now if for no other reason it is that I have faith in Geno taking better care of the ball. Granted that's based on hope, but we know after 4 seasons that Sanchez doesn't take care of the ball (#1 in turnovers the last two seasons, top 3 in turnovers over the past 4 seasons).
The thing of it is, while there are considerable flaws in Sanchez game, should it really come as a surprise, that even as he was putting up better stats, his play apparently declined as we lost a right tackle, and installed a turnstile at that spot, and at the same time, went from Hartsuck....a guy that made Anthony Becht look like Tony Gonzales, to Matt Mulligan? Then, we shed Schotty...dump WFH, install someone with more talent, and less expierience in Howard,..then stop throwing to the backs? Basically dictating, that the QB spends more time holding the ball? As I said...just for clarity. This is more a case, of Coach/system/player, than it is a case of the player being bad.... (p.s. over the first three years, Sanchez did improve, in consistency, and performance. Moreso, if you honestly evaluate the declining conditions surrounding the offense.. The numbers bear that out)
Is Matt Mulligan your new "thing" now? What is the big deal about a #2 TE that is strictly a blocking TE? Schotty's scheme never called for the use of 2 TE's in the passing game. His job was to block, and a large part of his responsibility was in the run game. How does this tremendously affect Sanchez? Do you know the Falcons #2 TE? Or The Saints? Or Seahawks? Every team can not have all-stars at every position. When you are paying a below average QB like he's a top 8 QB, other positions will take a hit. You saw it with the Ravens trading Boldin. When you have a WR getting paid like a top 5 WR, when he's lucky if he's a top 30 WR, then other positions will take a hit. Wayne Hunter was garbage, but one offensive lineman does not ruin a QBs season. Did you watch the Packers at all this season? Rodgers had backups all along the line playing for him, and he still had an MVP type season. Brees had a pretty bad LT blocking for him. Matt Ryan's OL was nothing spectacular. Andrew Luck played behind one of the worst OL's in the league, and he was still 5 times the QB Sanchez has been. Cam Newton has had a bad OL and Coaching and has managed to put together statistically the best 1st 2 seasons in the NFL. You've described it yourself- Sanchez needs a quality player at every position around him in order to succeed. Personally, I do not want that as my QB, because this will never happen, and be sustained, unless you have no one on defense. Id rather take my chances on Geno, and hope that he is a QB that can have some success without a great supporting cast around him. He very well could suck, but he at least provides some sort of hope for the positions, meanwhile Sanchez is a known quantity.
I just wish we can cut this scrub from the team. Let me be GM for a day, I'd have Sanchez cut within five minutes of being on the job.
I don't understand why people are so opposed to the idea that a QB needs good players around him. It's a team sport. QBs need good receivers to throw to as much as receivers need a good QB to throw to them. I guess the difference in opinion really between the two arguing sides is which is worse, Sanchez or the receivers? Personally, I think the Jets receivers are worse than the QBs. I've felt that was true from the minute they let Braylon Edwards walk out the door, promoting Holmes to an overpaid #1 who couldn't actually handle being a #1. They replaced Edwards with Plaxiglass who was great in the redzone, however couldn't stretch the field like Braylon could resulting in an offense that completely stagnated. Losing Tomlinson and not replacing him with anyone who could actually catch the ball didn't exactly help either. You can think whatever you want about Sanchez as an individual, its a fact that good teams don't just take a QB in the draft and assume the rest will fall into place through bargain basement signings. Hill doesn't necessarily qualify as an investment into Mark Sanchez because he came out of the draft as an extremely raw talent who could eventually contribute down the line. The Jets FO has had a systematic failure to put the necessary pieces in place to have a competitive offense. That's true whether you think Sanchez is a total waste or someone who can still be redeemed.
Where have you gotten the notion that I think QBs shouldnt have a quality team around them? Hobbes was pointing out a backup TE and ONE offensive lineman. I was saying that teams are allowed to be weak at a few positions; that is why there is a salary cap. Sanchez has had a very good cast around him his 1st two years, and he played below average for the most part. He had some great comebacks, but when you look at the total picture, it wasnt even average compared to the rest of the NFL. I also think that good QBs bring out the best in the player around them, so theres that... For instance, would the majority of the players Tom Brady played with on offense have had the same success with an average QB? Doubt it. Or Drew Brees' supporting cast? Or how Peyton made no names like Pierre Garcon, Jacob Tamme and Austin Collie into quality receivers...Same goes for Andrew Luck and the scrubs he played with. I 100% understand QBs need talent around them, especially young ones. But to nit pick each and every position and act like you need a good player at every position on offense just for Sanchez to succeed is foolish IMO. Its just not possible. Thats all I was saying.
This is so misleading. The defense lost a game giving up 10 points in 2011 where the offense netted 6 points, lost a game giving up 13 points in 2011. In the 13 point game the offense scored 3 points and netted -18 points! The Jets also lost a game where the opponent moved the ball 19 total yards off 3 drives following INTs (0 1st downs) and gave up 19 total points in the game. The Jets also won games where the defense held teams to 3,6,11,10, and 14. To act like the defense didn't help the Jets in 2011 in misleading. To act like the defense didn't win a game is misleading when they held 2 teams to 0 TDs!
All this debate over the QB competition is funny. 4 hours before the 3rd pre-season game with Rex coming on to announce the winner, Idzik will tweet that he signed Brett Favre for the season!
IMO having talent around your QB is important. But sometimes an organization might not be in a position to have great players around the QB. Maybe due to the team having money invested in the QB and at other positions. So in that case you want your QB to be able to elevate those around him. Not sink with the talent around him. That's a reason WHY Sanchez is NOT a franchise QB and someone we need to be on this team in the long term.
I do agree that no team will ever be perfect, and that a winner doesn't simply materialize overnight. There may be holes one year that get addressed the next year. I don't completely agree that Sanchez played mediocre his first two years... in a vacuum yes he did, but considering the fact that he was a rookie who only played one full year of college ball being thrown into a situation where he was expected to win immediately, I'd say getting to two AFC championship games in back to back years is FAR from mediocre. He could play better individually certainly, but the results always outweigh the style, and the results were fantastic. Sanchez individually also far outplayed his regular season performances in the playoffs, posting a 90 QB rating, being directly part of the reason why the Jets won the games that they did in the playoffs (particularly the NE game, which was probably the best game we've seen in the past decade), and he was NOT the reason we lost either of the championship games. The guy has shown the ability to show up when it matters, a factor that many NFL players with much better stat sheets and surrounding talent groups can't say. It's an intangible that is priceless. So with that said, the Jets didn't protect Sanchez in their roster management after that. After showing what he did (both good and bad), it was absolutely imperative that the #1 and only priority of the Jets was to improve the talent around him and make sure that the talent never got worse. It didn't just get worse, it fell off a freaking cliff. Many don't want to admit it since Braylon dropped some passes in Cleveland a few years ago, but there is a direct correlation between him leaving the Jets and the entire team falling on its face. He has yet to be replaced. Further, rather than replacing LT, the Jets decided it would be fine to have a runner who can only run, further limiting Sanchez's weapons. It's one thing to have one or two holes, as you're describing. It's another to lose Faneca, Woody, Jones, Washington, Tomlinson, Richardson, Edwards, B. Smith, and Cotchery. That's a LOT of talent that has basically been replaced with complete and utter shit. 75% of the turnovers that have occurred in the last two years are on Sanchez. Even if you eliminate the approximately 25% that had to do with either protection breakdowns or dropped passes turned INT or bad routes where the receiver wasn't where he was supposed to be, then Sanchez has been miserable awful in the turnover department. That needs to change. His decision making needs to improve by leaps and bounds. That said, these are problems that many other successful quarterbacks have had in their careers and have fixed. They don't get fixed however by degrading the situation around them. When you have a young and talented struggling quarterback, you don't help them by adding to their problems. Adding to Sanchez's problems is exactly what the Jets front office has done these past two seasons, and this new front office has done almost nothing to rectify this offseason. I pray that Geno Smith doesn't see the field anytime in the next two years. Not because I don't believe in him, but because I believe the Jets are setting him up to be Sanchez 2.0 by putting him in this environment.
Sanchez was serviceable for this team in 2009/10. The team around him was good enough for his struggles in order to make it to the playoffs. He did do some great things in those years, and I did love him as our QB. The thing is, is that he is not the same player he was then- at least in the last 2 years. Statistically, he's been about the same every year though, with some spikes in TDs, or turnovers. They all average about to the same. We've been talking about him cutting out the turnovers for 4 years now, going on 5. People may bring up Eli and his turnovers, but he at least generates a lot of big down field plays, which makes up for the turnovers somewhat. I do not see the same player from the first half of his career to the second half of his career. The Jets did not manage Sanchez the best... But they also expected him to continue the curve of his progress, which would mask some of the losses the Jets had due to money. Sanchez didnt live up to the task, and now we are in this position. If Sanchez had progressed as the organization expected of him, then Tanny would still have his job, and be looked at as a genius for the contract that he gave Sanchez compared to the contracts being given out to QBs now. I know there is a corelation between Braylon leaving, but I just cant see a player like him (someone who couldnt stick on any other team, and who really isnt anything special), being the cause of Sanchez's regression. Im not going to defend some of the idiotic moves like giving Wayne Hunter 4 mil guaranteed, or the lack of depth on the OL and WR position recently... I will say that, the Jets did draft or try to at least address some of the losses, although they seemingly havent worked out as planned (which is why Tanny no longer has a job). They drafted Connor as Richardsons replacement, McKnight as the passcatching RB and LTs replacement, Hill as Braylon's down field threat replacement ect. Now these havent worked out nearly as the Jets couldve hoped, but they did try. Connor was cut, McKnight has not been utilized right and hasnt lived up to expectations, and Hill was extremely raw and had a ton of injuries. At this point, I just dont see Sanchez being anything more than Alex Smith under optimal conditions. He has regressed in many aspects- footwork, arm strength, mentality, leadership and I havent seen that "clutch" factor where he would step up in big situations in a while. I see him as damaged goods. I dont see how someone who has never consistently been better than average, can miraculously turn his career around under the current situation. You put Sanchez in San Fran, and yeah, maybe he can turn his career around... or you put him on the Saints, yeah, maybe. I dont see it here at all. I know the Jets organization screwed him up, but it still doesnt change reality, sadly.
The Jets did nothing this offseason to help Sanchez rebound... in my mind its a pretty foregone conclusion that Sanchez is out officially after this year (which will be pretty painful). I understand the BPA mentality and agree with it for the most part, but at the same time there needs to be a focus on offense that the Jets are just not committed to. We've traded Revis for Milliner, Pouha for Richardson, Scott for Davis, Landry for Landry, and Bell for Bush/Allen on defense. Assuming EVERY single one of those guys pans out, all we're getting out of that is a marginal improvement at best. Meanwhile, the Jets offense will continue to flounder with a QB controversy and no receiving talent whatsoever. The Jets made a GREAT decision bringing in Morningwood as the OC this past offseason, however I somehow expect the fans will want to run him out of town after this season too. How are the Jets going to execute a passing centric west coast offense with no reliable receivers and a quarterback who struggles with accuracy to begin with and has no one to bail him out. This season will be a disaster. Offense is needed to win in the NFL. The Jets refuse to develop the offense with anything more than patchwork hold the forts.
Ya gotta lay off the revisionist history. Mulligan, was the number two tight end on the depth chart, yes. He was howver your primary blocking tight end, and was guilty of false starts that mad e Brandon Moores early years look good. Sanchez, does not need quality at every position around him. Just a friggin chance. Its curious, how you jumped right on Mulligan, skipping overWayne the Turnstile Hunter, with tue same alacrity as defenders did. The point is, as we went from the third down argument, is given (again, the part that no one wants to discuss) context....you had a penalty machine for a TE, and a Turnstile at RT. Does that excuse excessive fumbles, of course not. But there are non qb factors in QB performance. We will see.
Actually, Sanchez's "improvements" have never come in the same year and in reality have been nothing but statistical "noise" up to this point in his career. He's had "career" years in several categories, but never to a point of being above average and never being repeated between two seasons. Hint, unless something is repeated more than once it's just a statistical variation or outlying number. He's had 1 season over 55% completion rate, none over 57%, a variation of 1-2% is merely statistical variation from season to season you see in all QB's baseline. He's had one outlying season where he threw less than 18 interceptions, until he repeats that, if he ever has a full time chance to again, it has to be considered an fluke stat which occurs from time to time, like Roger Maris's hitting 61 Homers one season, which is almost double the most he hit in any other season. You get outliers from time to time, perfect storms where things look better than they actually are. Just like Maris was really a 20-30 homer guy (in his case still making him above average player) Sanchez has for 3 out of 4 seasons been an 18+ interception guy, making him below average in that regard. Sanchez's 6.5 Yards per attempt puts him at the bottom of the pile in yards per attempt. Sanchez Air yards, the distance the ball travels on average in the air, is in the bottom 3 or 4 in the NFL in any given season. You can argue that he's had bad talent around him some years, you can argue that he's had bad coaching....subjective arguments. But, can you argue that over the 4 years he's had worse talent and worse coaching than every other QB in the league? Hint: He's a bottom 28-32 guy.... I don't hate Sanchez, But I love the Jets and I expect more than mediocracy from the teams QB. I don't even blame Sanchez, beyond his decision to leave college after his first full year of starting. He was a one year starter in College who had very little experience and had receivers in college that frequently had 5 yards of separation. He wasn't ready for the NFL.
