Good post. While you tend to be more optimistic about how Muck might do somewhere else, we both agree the Jets are not a place where there is any chance worth considering that he might do better. On top of everything else, he's lost the fanbase. We might wish that should not be a factor, but PARTICULARLY with a player who has his personality, it is a factor. He is an error prone player who has no margin of error left with the fans. And he knows it, which only makes it worse. There is as a practcal matter no chance for him to succeed in New York. No chance. If he's the starter this coming year, we can see it will be a wasted year. It will in fact be worse than that. Year one of the rebuilding will actually prove detrimental to the development of the rest of the players on O. How will Hill improve, for example, with a crap Qb like Muck throwing the ball? How will Hill learn to catch on the run with the Qb leading him when Muck simply sucks at that? How will the RB's get confidence if opponents continue to stack the line because they do not fear Muck? Retaining him another year will harm the rebuilding effort. I know the conventional wisdom is the jets are stuck with him for one more year, but think he really needs to go this off season.
Winner winner, chicken dinner right here! Kill the thread it's officially over! Logic, proof, facts, all packaged into one!
To be completely honest, I loved Sanchez. I have two of his Jerseys and he was my favorite player. I defended him on here up until about October... I didnt want us to sign Peyton because I had faith Mark could come back and be a franchise QB. I hoped that the end of the 2011 season was just a fluke and that he would take 2 steps forward. I was wrong. So to say everyone who "hates" Sanchez has hated from day 1 is just false. I dont want him on this team because I've realized that he is extremely hurting our chances at succeeding. The team in my eyes comes before any player. I want the Jets to win SBs... If that means putting aside any love fest for a player, then thats what has to be done- for instance Revis. Revis is beyond great, but if trading him helps this franchise then its a must. How is it emotion that people dislike Sanchez and not logic? The stats and every game tape since the start of the 2011 supports the reasoning of not wanting him to start. IMO, those who are still defending the guy are letting emotion get the better of them. When is enough, enough? How many times are we going to say "lets give him another chance." Because in all honesty, whats the likelihood that he turns into a franchise QB? 2%? I would rather move on and not waste a year with those odds. Of course the kid has the talent. Every high draft pick has the talent. Vernon Gholston had the talent... Jamarcus Russel had the talent. Talent isnt everything. Look at Drew Brees- certainly one of the most underwhelming NFL players from a talent perspective... But because of what lies in his head is what makes him so great. Flacco regressed in 2011... But he never regressed to being a bottom tier QB like Sanchez. Also, Im not sure what your gage on "regression is", because if Cundiff makes a kick or Lee Evans catches a perfect TD pass, they make it to the SB. He certainly played better in the playoffs in 2011 (which seems to be your entire basis for loving Sanchez), so why the hate on Flacco? Why has he regressed? Eli may have regressed... But he's already won 2 SBs. Thats basically all that needs to be said... In his 4th year Eli won his 1st SB, so that comparison on giving Sanchez 4 years is run out. Since he won his 1st SB, he has never had a QBR less than 85, has averaged 4000+ yards each season, hasnt had a Comp% less than 59.9, and has averaged about 27 TDs per season. Do you even want to compare Eli's "regression" and Sanchez's regression? Oh yeah, and 4 years after his 1st SB, he won another. Some regression. Okay, so your reasoning to why we shouldnt give up on him lies with the logic of "he was a QB of a team that won 4 road playoff games in his 1st 2 years"... and now its year 5. I posted something similar to this before, but playoff wins are extremely hard to judge a QB's merit because it is a team sport and certain teams have great supporting casts which help a QB (Sanchez in 2009/10) and others have to carry the load (whether it be make those on offense better or even have the entire offense make up for a crappy D/STs). In 2009/10 we had a top 5 OL and run game, a top 3 defense and arguably the best STs. Basically, Sanchez just had to not fuck up and we would make it to the playoffs. I will admit though, that he did come up clutch a few times and actually did propel us to victory. He has played well in some big games... but now, those games are few and far between. As Aaron Rodgers said "A QB earns his paycheck in the regular season, but makes his legacy in the postseason." Maybe the team's early success with him as QB has made you believe in his legacy far too much... Because he certainly hasnt earned his paycheck in the regular season. Edit: and for what its worth, I 100% do NOT think that Sanchez was the only problem with this team. This franchise had problems from top to bottom. We had coaching problems, depth problems, talent problems... I completely understand that. But as Steve Young said, as a QB trying to instill hope for the future in a franchise and fan base, you can absolutely not accelerate the down. He surely magnified the problem. On a slipping box... Theres friction resisting the sliding motion in the opposite direction. As a QB who you believe so much in, and one who wants to be a franchise QB... You have to be that friction. You have to fight that downward motion of the falling team. Sanchez didnt do that. He had no coefficient of friction. No resistance.
wells said br4d, truth and bb i am enjoying this thread much more only seeing the posts that are quoted, its like have a defense shield up and only one out of every 5 shots gets through. i should have done it long ago bb, just like you said.
He never regressed that much b/c his weapons weren't Kerelt, Schilens, Gates, Cumberland, Reuland. His first good postseason game was the 2011 title game at NE. Eli threw 25 INTs in 2010, that's regression. he has 1 less total TO than Sanchez and 1 less postseason app. The reason NYG won in '11 and we lost in '10 wasn't b/c of the QBs, switch the QBs and you get the same results both ways. Now we count year 5 even though we haven't even got to TC? he's played 4 years and led us deep twice. That's a good percentage. I am not saying he's guaranteed to succeed, he very well may be too mentally shot to succeed here again but w/ the cap hit we'd take we have to keep him so why not try to make him the best QB he can be?
This is a very good point. Theoretically we will either have a) a rookie we drafted behind Sanchez b) a veteran like Campbell, Orton behind Sanchez and either one, the second Mark has a bad game, he's done. All QBs have bad games the thing is, Sanchez has no more leash. One bad a game and he's out. IF he plays perfect, hey we found our QB against the worst odds. If not, we move on probably a year later than we should have. To the first part, if Nick Folk misses in IND, the Jets have a 2-2 playoff record under Mark Sanchez and the first playoff run we had under Mark is considered more of a fluke/gift than actual representation of the Jets team at the time. That one kick changes everything, yet everyone likes to use playoffs wins as a key Qb stat. The other problem is Sanchez had 6 average to great games in the playoffs, what about the other 50? There is a higher chance the 4 years of regular season starts we saw from him are more indicative of his skill than the 6 starts from 3 and 4 years ago. To the second point, the acceleration comment sums it up. If Sanchez held his own and didn't accelerate the failure of the team, I'm sure more fans would be willing and more optimistic of him. But, like Young and you pointed out, he accelerated the downward effect of the team. That's not good since there were many basic things he could of done (regardless of coaching/talent/OL/WR/etc) that would have made him look better and the team look better. Also, his confidence looked shook (always a bad sign) and he didn't look like the QB from year 2 or 3 that showed promise, he looked like the QB from his rookie year except without confidence or hope.
displaced, Yeah. Accelerates the downward trend. I think that effect is very much a real one, and it effectively can/will? take the Jets into an even worse situation than wasting the 2013 season. He can, as I believe he did in 12, actually make the team worse going forward. Particularly the young players on O will be harmed if he is retained. How not to play offense on football is not much of a learning experience.
Everyone seemed to have interpreted what they wanted from my post comparing the 2 NY QBs. To be honest I'm not exactly sure what my point was other than to highlight some interesting similarities between the 2 and yet how differently they are perceived. After giving it some thought, I do think Eli represents a good case study on how fans should not be so quick to give up developing young QB whom much was invested in. Jets fans complain about Mark Sanchez's completion percentage and turnovers but Sanchez has a higher completion percentage, 5 more INTs and just 1 more fumble than Eli did after his 4th season despite Sanchez playing more games. This is surprising when you consider the disparity in talent they each had at the skill level positions. Prior to the playoff run he had after his 4th regular season, the Giants fans I know were just as frustrated with Manning. However, Manning flashed enough good up until that point to keep them from getting to where they felt he was a lost cause and/or they needed to go another direction. I'm assuming those that have completely given up on Sanchez have not seen any flash of good or enough to justify not moving on. I am probably now where Giants fans were then. Although, I'm beyond frustrated with Sanchez, I'm not at the point where I am screaming for Alex Smith to come save the day. I want to see what he does under an experienced and accomplished OC and system that is better suited to his skills set. I've posted before how MM added nearly 10 points to Vick's career completion percentage which was 4 points lower than what Sanchez's is now. Now many will read the above and will want to quickly point out the areas where Manning was clearly better through his first four years. I will save you the trouble. I am fully aware Manning was far more productive in terms TDs and yardage. I just wanted to convey how Manning struggled early on with his accuracy, decision making and turnovers, the biggest issue Sanchez's detractors have. While those issues are worrysome, I don't think they worthy of giving up on our investment. I think the biggest issue with Sanchez thus far should be his lack of mental toughness. I know he's been terribly mismanaged and lumped into this circus the Jets have created but you get the feeling that under the same set of circumstances that Eli would not lose his confidence and be so flappable.
It's year 5. If he has no confidence in himself, what the fuck is he doing on the team? If for some ungodly reason Sanchez is allowed to play and he fails (because he will), someone will blame MM for not being a good OC, for being an Eagles' retread, blah blah blah.
Originally Posted by Mangolden Showers View Post How bout when we see him hanging his head like a little bitch every other play, how bout when he says the same gay shit every postgame. If his receivers are blowing routes then point at them and tell em to stop fucking up. If it looks like shit and smells like shit, I don't have to stick my hand in it to make sure. If Sanchez has a great year next year then I'll be the first guy to say congratulations but even if he corrects every other part of his game that's only gonna happen if he holds his head up and lets his nuts swing.[/QUOTE] So like I said there is no way to tell how confident he/she is... A person can put their head down, shoulders sulking and limp of the field. Michael Jordan says hi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIzrYcgfOH4 Jordan looked like sh-t, and prob smelled like it to BUT in Game 5 of the 1997 Finals, Michael Jordan looking like a living dead/zombie scores 38 points and lead Chicago to the win. NO Sanchez is not Jordan but lets not act were experts at reading body language. There is no number we can put a number on leadership, will, confidence, determination those are all OPINIONS. There is no way to measure those things. Also we've heard 2 qb's say that the Jets Offense looked bad, and theyd have a hard time suceeding within that system.
The concerning thing about Sanchez was his loss in confidence great QBs don't lose confidence like that. The sparano experiment failed miserably and Tanny gutted the O that is not Marks fault.
I'm not sure if he can hinder the young players that much because I feel like if he is starting and he plays bad, he will be yanked right away limiting his effect on the team. You realize he looked like a zombie because he had the flu right? I hope you know that. It wasn't him lacking confidence in himself, it was because he was physically ill.
Ok and if they rule the fumble a pass at Pitt we are in the SB or if our secondary doesn't go down in Indy we make that SB. we can play the what if game all day but mark led us to a chip shot FGA to win that game. Mark & Eli were very similar through 3 years, both were up and down but pulled out many games late. The biggest difference btw the 2 is NYG kept adding talent and we stopped adding talent.
That and most QBs find a way to look reasonably decent and not horrific even when they are missing pieces. Sanchez looked like his rookie year, that's one of the most concerning parts of it.
LOL! This is one if the worst posts I've ever read. I'm not acting like an body language expert. I'm not saying "his blinks when asked this question indicate insecurity". That's the kind of shit body language experts analyze. example: http://www.bodylanguagesuccess.com/2011/01/negotiation-secret-101-recognizing.html?m=1 It doesn't take a PhD to notice that someone sulking like a little bitch is bad leadership. Do you realize that Sanchez was being fined by the team for displays of poor body language in practice?! Do a Google search, this has been an issue throughout his career. I'm not even gonna comment on the Jordan stuff, that's already been debunked as a bullshit argument by a poster above me.
I'm not comparing them in any way other then the coversation about Flacco was,at one point, that he wasn't ever going to be a QB that could get the team to the next level. Some in Baltimore even wanted him gone. I'm just saying that Mark is a guy that has his flaws, no doubt, but I just have a hard time tossing him in the junk pile given the talent he was forced to deal with, and also his rediculous mishandeling at the hands of an inept HC and coaching staff. He had a very short college career and is still young. I'm looking forward to having him on the team for one more year, and having him compete with legitimate competition in camp. I'm also looking forward to seeing him with this new staff.
lol. If you click the link its obv. called Jordan "FLU GAME" and the only reason you know he had the flu bcuz you were told by a source who knows Jordan and was close to him, not a fan making educated guesses. So stop guessing how a player MIGHT be phyiologically, and psychologically bcuz we dont know. I might put my head down after a bad play bcuz a) I didnt perform well in that play b) Another player/ team execution was poor in that play c) The play called was a poor play d) Could be the grass looks Green or it could be anything, bcuz we dont know what's going on in a persons head. Sanchez to a fault always says the right things, and represents the team well as a professional considering the team has been under intense scrutiny by the media (aka circus). Im def not saying Mark has played well bcuz the numbers and our record speaks for itself, but lets not judge certain things we have no def way measuring. Also if Sanchezs head is down and he isnt jumping for joy might because the team sucks, and nobody should be walking with a smile. Id be more worried if Sanchez was dancing with the way our team played.
holy shit... jordan goes out and plays with the flu and overcomes it and LEADS his team to VICTORY in the nba championship.. mark sanchez is a whiny cunt who sulks over being such a pussy. yes yes these are the same. one guy is sick and still leads his team... the other is a cunt
