Champ thinks Jets should play Tebow

Hahaha... you dont know dick about me man. I'm happily married (16 years in october!) have 2 awesome boys, and everyone is happy and healthy and the money front is very good as well. I have plenty to be positive about and am... unfortunately the Jets are one of my sole frustrations! That and the god fore-saken Mets.

I hate you and all the tebots coming in to my neighborhood spewing your BS.

 

McElroy might have a weaker arm than Chad post surgery.

 

You should be embarrased that you have no clue what it means to be a true fan of a team.

 

Yes, I should be the one who is embarrassed that I just enjoy the game. Roger that, have you checked the posts you write? It's just that a game, I think you have your priorities in life way off balance if you think I that I just can't enjoy the game and have to make other people feel like garbage to be a true fan. You are laughable.

 

My mistake, it was actually Brian Dawkins who was on 1050 and said Tebow should not start but should have packages. I interpreted the thread title as Tebow should start. All everybody seems to say is how great of a teammate he is, and I don't question that at all. It was pitiful to hear those comments from anonymous players. But even his ex teammates will not say he should be starting.

 

This is true, Sanchez would have to be playing much worse (believe it or not) and have no shot at the playoffs in order to warrant a change at Qb. Let's not forget that Tebow had Willis Mcgahee running all over the place and had a pretty stellar defense last year. I like the Jets defense despite their age, but we don't have a Vonmiller or Dumervil. Tebow would not be able to do what he did in Denver with the Jets. The starting of Tebow would have been a total failure, and thats not even a total indictment of Tebow. I can't recall how great Denver's O-line was but they had to have been better than the Jets this year.

 

Denver offensive line had a rooke and two second year players on it. They weren't the greatest, that's for sure. But Tebow presented a couple of problems for them too that I gotta wonder if a good offensive line would have fared well in:

One, there were times Tebow held on to the ball for 8 or 9 seconds. His scrambling around bought some time, but his first, second, and third instincts were to run out of the pocket, which offensive lines are designed to protect unless they know ahead of time if it is going to be a rollout, play action, or bootleg or something. They pretty much had to guess where he was gonna run with it and that can be hard to do when they are facing the other way trying to fight off a 300 pound defender.

Second, defenses most of the time figured out he wasn't going to beat them with his arm that well, so they stacked the box with 8 or 9 and ran containment schemes. Pretty tough to block even with double tight ends. run option wasn't as effective anymore as defenders started decking both Tebow and the RB.

So the offensive line was really tough to judge. Same with the wide receivers too. A lot of people were down on Decker and Thomas, but they were hard to get a read on because the QB's first instincts when there was even a hint of trouble was to look for an exit rather than look for them. when he did find them, the throw was hit or miss... and miss... and miss...

 

We've discussed some of this. Contrary to your ill informed opinion, Tebow's first instinct isn't to take off and run down field. When he feels pressure in the pocket, he scrambles and continues to look for receivers down field. IF he can't find one, or IF the the pocket is collapsing and he can't scramble, THEN he takes off running.

The offensive line was indeed young, but they did a great job with the run blocking. Then again, they had great schemes and executed them pretty well. Their pass protection was suspect even up to 3 or 4 seconds, the amount of time that they are supposed to hold. After that, it is as you mentioned, with Tebow scrambling around, it was difficult for them to know where he was.


As for the wideouts, both were young and inexperienced. Decker had good moves but questionable on his route discipline. DThomas really didn't know his routes. Both of them had troubles with drops. This year, they both have another year of experience under their belts including TC. They have some experienced Veterans who were brought in and can show them the ropes. They also have Peyton Manning who, aside from being a great passer, can also teach them quite a bit about playing WR.

 

Ummm, no.

First off, you look pretty week when you for the 900th time keep telling people they don't know what they are talking about, or are ill informed. Acting like a know it all snob and belittling people just because you don't agree doesn't make you right. Just sayin'.

Anyway, as for this quote... I saw every game he played as a Bronco. I admit he got a little better about not running ALL THE TIME as the season went on. He kind of had to get better because defenses were looking for it with their 8 or 9 men in the box. But early on, you'd see only 16 pass attempts, and people blamed the coaches for only calling that many passing plays, but there were actually a lot more of them called... he just ran on about 10 of them. Sometimes it was the right call and he'd gain 10 yards. Other times, he'd be lucky to get back to the line of scrimmage and he would have been better off just throwing it away.

There were also times you could almost see him trying to fight that urge. But make no mistake, he was usually looking for an exit. It was quite easy to see, especially when play by play announcers pointed out open receivers he never even looked at. He rarely looked for the checkdown guy either. So he'd attempt t run it, and the results were mixed, but were less effective as the season went on and the rest of the league figured out his throwing was shaky at best. That was a huge knock on him last year, and many Jet fans said the same thing around camp.

How many times did it drive me crazy to see him take a couple of drop steps back, he'd see a hole in the line, he'd tuck it and run for a one yard gain because the hole didn't stay there as long as it did in his days in Florida.

 

unless the Champ you refer to is ChampionshipJets69 I don't care

 

Not gonna get into an antagonistic post here, but you really have no room whatsoever to say this kind of stuff. You're one of the more insulting posters I've seen here. Just sayin'.

Running is a big part of Tebow's game, and shouldn't be ignored simply because coaches like their "pocket" qb's. He needs to get better along with coaches at picking the right times to run, and certainly needs to get better (down the road) at hitting the quick checkdowns. But for now, his power running can be a substitute for the short passing game. It can't be a 100% substitute forever, but it buys him some flexibility that other quarterbacks don't have. He's not like an Orton, who absolutely must hit that checkdown now, or the plays fall apart. He can buy himself time, and as a result will get more big passing opportunities than a typical non-mobile quarterback.

This is where I think coaching really comes into play. You could practically hear the gears grinding in Tebow's mind as he resisted the urge to run sometimes. You could tell the coaches were emphasizing "don't run".

That's the completely wrong way to use Tebow, imo, if you're going to play him at all. Use the run game, but have more clearly defined times to run/scramble and improvise.

He was also cautious, almost to a fault, about throwing interceptions. He normally wasn't willing to risk a close throw until later in the game, when a play had to be made. Yes. Tell your new quarterbacks to take care of the football, but don't make it their #1 fear, to the point where they're scared to make the throw.

Also, putting Tebow into a power formation takes away from his strong suit. Sure, he can still be effective at times, but he's best when the field is spread out, not just because of more receiving options, but because there will be lots of defensive backs on the field. Tebow can bully his way through most defensive backs, and turn a broken/not working play in to a moderate gain, at least. This is what sets him apart from your typical speed scrambling quarterback, ala Vick. See: Jets vs Broncos, 2011. Last drive.

This is something that needs work, of course. With time, and half decent coaching, I believe that he can find the balance between running and passing. Most young quarterbacks get the benefit of the doubt and the time to work on their game. With Tebow, everybody demands perfection now. Every single qb coming into the league has weaknesses, and struggle at first with NFL coverages. Why should Tebow be any different?

Final note: I'm hoping that responding rationally to you isn't a waste of time. I'll keep my expectations low.

 

I'm not the one constantly saying people don't know what they are talking about. ...and I'm not insulting anyone that hasn't insulted me. I guess you missed all that while blowing a gasket about my take on Tebow sucking. I come in here and gave my reasons as to why tebow wasn't any good, and 4 or 5 guys come out calling names and stuff. One even suggested suffocation by pillow. Got called a religious bigot even though I never once mentioned his religion. One questioned my sexual orientation. Another called me a retard. I think it was Bannon that finally offered something rational. But I'm the most insulting?

Riiiiiiiiight....

I think Elway said it best. Running, scrambling, and all that is a great bonus for a QB. But it shouldn't be your bread and butter.

I agree with that. I would have loved Tebow had he been able to do the normal stuff too. It is becoming increasingly evident that it is more a compensation for his inability to pass... which is what the rest of the league is doing right now. Had Tebow been able to do the conventional stuff too, and had all that intangible and running stuff as a bonus... I would have been a much bigger Tebow fan. His inability to complete passes is a BIG BIG BIG red flag for me, and he hasn't improved it.... AT ALL!!!

My problem with Tebow is and always has been his passing.

Good luck finding a team that will stick with that philosophy. I'm in 100% agreement that if Tebow's career was the #1 priority for the NFL, someone absolutely has to go all in and build completely around him. Right now, he's looking like a square peg in a world of round holes. But then, that is why his career is sinking, because people can't get it into their heads that in order for him to succeed, tebow needs to round off those square edges, because the round holes aren't going to change to a square just for him.

Other running QBs like Griffin and others have a chance to succeed, because they can pass. You're asking for a team to change for a guy that really has a hard time with that. So much easier for those teams to just go find another round peg.

I think the coaching staff was scared to have him throw too. They have to have faith in your throwing ability, and Tebow gave them few reasons to have any.

Yep, Tebow is a different kind of runner. He runs people over like a full back. Vick is more like a WR who is better suited to run around people. none of that matters if you can't throw though. Or else you get 7 or 8 guys in the box like Tebow saw almost every play when they went 1-4 down the stretch and backing into the playoffs with 3 losses... one of them to a team that scored 7 points all day.

The problem is the level of committment and the level of changes a team would have to make to make your vision of what Tebow needs to come true. I don't see a single team out there that will be willing to do that. Not in this day and age of self preservation and short GM/coaching tenures. too much to ask for one guy who seems to lack a very important skill... namely passing.

His game would have worked 30 years ago. Google some videos of Bobby Douglas sometime. Left handed passer, some even say had worse accuracy than even Tebow, but had a lot of success. Insert Tebow's name wherever Douglas's name appears... it's uncanny. Too bad Tebow was born about 20-30 years too late. The league doesn't do that anymore. No running QB stands a chance in hell unless they can do that pocket passing thing too.

 

post gone bad

 

May the wind always fill your sails
May your anchors never drag
May your foulies stay in the locker
May your instruments be safe from lightning
May your strainers and your heads never clog
May your beers always be cold
And may the rum never run out

Cheers and Happy Thanksgiving to everyone but Tim detractors and Tim fan disparagers. I have no problem with the detractors and disparagers having a Happy Thanksgiving, I just don't talk to them much.

 

I think you got lumped in with fatal on some of those things. He, more than most, definitely hates Tebow's religion and religious affiliations. You're still pretty condescending and insulting, but I guess everybody's taken their turns at that.

I can see your side, but I think you strongly overplay his inability to pass. If you watched the first 3 quarters of most games last year, you'd look completely right. If you watched most of the 4th quarters, you'd seem like a crazy person.

Why did Tebow so dramatically transform in the last quarter/closing drive of a game? Some blame it on magic or god, but he obviously can pass. It's just a matter of getting him to do it consistently through a game, like the Pittsburgh one. Good coaches can get the best play out of their players. Tebow's "best play" was pretty amazing, at times.

I put his new "mechanical" problems as much on coaching as I do Tebow. He already came into the league with issues to tweak and work on, but once his coaches start trying to "reinvent" him, it's not going to go well. In this area, I think Tebow's a little too eager to please. At some point he needs to just stand up for himself and say "hey, I might not throw perfectly the way you want, but I'm not going to scrap everything, just so it looks "prettier" to you."

It's one thing to try to round the corners off a square peg. It's a whole different thing to smash it and pound it in till it fits.

The truth is somewhere in the middle. Aside from your gross exaggeration of his inability to pass, this is mostly true. Offenses don't have to be "revolutionized" to make it work, but it would definitely go against the norm for the nfl.

Since Walsh, everybody's become too accustomed to dink and dunk, quick read, by the numbers quarterback play. So many college players now don't get a chance simply because they don't fit into coaches' uncreative and low risk strategies. Looks like Tebow is just going to be another casualty of this, unless something changes significantly.

That's no excuse for piss poor coaching. Was it "magic", when Tebow suddenly turned unstoppable late in alot of those games? Why was it that he could pass sometimes, but looked atrocious at others? Personally I think it's mostly coaching, compounded by Tebow's "too eager to please" mentality.

Every new quarterback has rough patches. Especially when they play the Pats twice, and get completely destroyed, offensively and defensively, in every way.

Most quarterbacks get the "oh, that was a good learning experience. The pats are really good."

With Tebow, "look the league has him figured out and he'll never be an nfl qb".

I agree, (aside from the inability to pass hyperbole) and I think this is really the heart of the issue. Unless there's a really innovative coach that wants to use him correctly, there won't be much room for him. The two most likely to win with him are probably belicheck or harbaugh. Otherwise, I don't see many with the cajones to go against the grain with him.

It can work again, just as it did years ago. Especially now that most defenses are geared to stop quick passing games. I think the nfl could use some fresh air, and new (old) ideas, but not many people will risk their careers trying something different.

 

FINALLY!!! Someone on your side admits it.

...and it is even more to change the hole. This is pretty much I have always believed Tebow would fail. He won't be able to overcome a lifetime of problems to fit into today's league.

Not the first person that has happened to.

I don't think it is hyperbolic at all. It's the biggest knock on him, and it is the one major thing I think is holding him back. It's the reason few are willing to take a chance on him. It's the reason he went from a first round pick to a trade for a 4th rounder a couple years later to whatever he's gonna be when the offseason gets here. Check out his stats in the first 3 quarters, his completion percentage is down somewhere in the 30s.

That brings me to the 4th quarter magic. I don't know what makes him more effective in the 4th. I would have thought a competetive guy like that would have the switch turned on in the first. I will say I did notice at the times that defense seemed to change their attacks. Every team in the league is guilty of this. They see they have the lead, they see time running out, they relax a bit, drop back a bit to avoid giving up the big play.... absolutely the WRONG thing to do with Tebow who suddenly gets time to survey the field, take in what is going on, and either find an open man or run it.

Only one team last year stuck with what worked all day and didn't back off one iota... and that last drive was ended as quickly as the others. That was Kansas City, beating the Broncos 7 to 3.

I believe that is a big part of the 4th quarter "magic." He's actually pretty good in that scenario when not all QBs have demonstrated they can. That alone isn't a reason for me to keep him though... That only works when you have a defense keeping the game close while you get 3 to 7 offensive points in the first 3 quarters. Not sustainable IMO, and that was proven correct when the Broncos played teams that actually had an offense. Those games usually ended up in blowouts with Tebow's customary 13 - 17 or so points to 40.

Better find that guy that will do that quick... I give Tebow 2 more years in the NFL, before the NFL looks to the younger college kids, or teams get fed up with the circus that follows him and avoids him completely. Nobody wants a mediocre player who has a following and media following up in the coach's grill telling them he should start Tebow.

 

So yeah, I think an offense would have to change a bit to suit him, just not quite as much as you do. It's not like they'd have to reinvent the forward pass. Just make the offense suited to mobile quarterbacks, like Shanahan is so good at doing. But on top of accounting for [his type of] mobility, you need to let Tebow pound the football pretty often. Conventional thinking says that he's more likely to get injured this way, but I believe he's more vulnerable when he's receiving hits in the pocket, rather than delivering the blow in the open field.

A couple points. First of all, Eli and Rothburger have made their careers off of "finishing" a game after the defense carried them most of the way. Eli was the only quarterback that was even comparable to Tebow, in the fourth quarter, last year. Both of those guys are in nearly every "elite qb" conversation.

Secondly, when I see a guy that sucks for 3 quarters, then transforms into nearly a miracle worker in the 4th quarter, I think there's more to it than just the player's talent. There's something else going on that's holding him back.

You think it's his own talent. Nothing he can do will overcome that.

I think it's a combination of piss poor coaching combined with his being to eager to do whatever the coaches say. I shouldn't have to point out that Fox and now Sparano aren't exactly on the "cutting edge" of offensive philosophy. It's strange that "coachability" would be considered a weakness, but I think this is one of the rarer cases of it.

Bottom line: I think he's grossly overmanaged in the first 3 quarters, and then when the game's out of hand and the coaches get desperate, they scrap the slow paced gameplan for a more aggressive, fast paced approach.

If he gets stuck with the Jets for too long, I think he's toast. I think there are 3 teams right now that he could succeed with. The Patriots, the 49ers, or the Redskins. Shanny likes his west coast qb's, but I think he could work with Tebow.

Imagine RG3 and Tebow both in empty backfield, with 4 receivers wide, with a direct snap to either of them. It'd be friggin unstoppable. As long as they had an all-pro center, of course