We seem to have this thread every 2-3 years. You repeat the same arguments over and over. I saw Namath play. You did not. I have also seen Hasselbeck play. For you to even put Hasselbeck in the same sentence as Namath illustrates just how far off you are in evaluating Namath's career. You are simply looking at numbers. You know nothing about Namath or his career or even how to evaluate his career. You and I have had this argument about 3-4 times already. From 1966 through 1969 Namath was one of if not the best QBs in football. He also was one of the top 2-3 QBs in the league in 1972. He was one of the best passers in NFL history and was a transformational player for the NFL. He was injured in 70 and 71. From 1974-6 the Jets were a terrible, awful team and the wear and tear of Namath's injuries were taking their toll. Look at his accolades - All AFL, All Pro, AFL QB of the 60s etc. Look at his 4007 yards passing in 1967 in an era when 3000 was a huge year. Read what his peers said and still say about him. Not one person who played in the AFL in the late 60s and early 70s say Namath was overrated and some call him the greatest passer they have ever seen. I put my stock and my faith in my eyes - I saw him play and every other QB since. I also put stock in what his peers thought of him. I put no stock in your simplistic view of statistics with a modern day bias. While I respect your opinions in general, you are just plain wrong in this case. Critique the players you saw and stay away from an era and players you just have no business evaluating. I would never even think to evaluate or compare the career of , say, Otto Graham, with any QB I saw play because I did not see him play.
I repeat the same stuff b/c it is true. AGAIN this is not about talent, talent wise Joe is an all time great but his career was mediocre. I don't judge him based solely on stats and nowhere have I ever compared his stats w/ modern day players. I judge him based on his time and his peers and he comes up short. he was a 1st team all pro ONCE, let's not make it out that he was consistently all pro threw for 4,000 yds w/ 28 INTs. I know QBs threw more INTs back then but 28? that kind takes a little luster off the yardage especially since they were 3rd in scoring in a 9 team AFL. 66-69 wasn't a long stretch and in that stretch he threw 79 TDs and 89 INTs so at his best he was -10 in TD to INT ratio w/ only ONE season w/ a positive ratio. Intersting. no argumetn from me about his injuries affecting play but unfortunately durability counts so we cannot ignore the injuries. did we need to see Babe Ruth play to know how great he was? I have seen, read, heard enough to form an eductaed opinion. I wish I saw more of him play to have a more informed opinion but I think I have enough it understandhow good he actually was and how good he could have and should have been.
Bo Jackson and Gale Sayers wouldn't make anyone's top 50 list but anyone who saw them play knows they were fantastic. Hell I would take one Bo Jackson season in his prime over half the running backs that are in the HOF because of carrier numbers. Namath was judged by those who saw him. He was a spectacular player in a limited time frame. Having seen both Terrell Davis and Curtis Martin I would trade in every Martin year for the 2 great years Davis had.
You see, this is where your ignorance of the 60s and 70s era comes through and your argument falls to pieces, just as it has every time we have had it in the past. Namath was All Pro only once because the NFL All Pro teams did not exist until the AFL-NFL merger in 1970. So you are correct, Namath was All Pro once - in 1972. He has a boat load of AFL honors, however, that you just ignore. 1965 - AFL Rookie of the year AFL All Star - 1965, 67, 68, 69 AFL MVP - 1968 Super Bowl III MVP And the most important one of all The AFL All -Time Team - First Team QB (your golden boy and favorite comparator to Namath, Len Dawson, was the Second Team QB). I guess all those players and members of the media and the like who voted for him to receive these honors didn't have a chance to talk to you about how overrated he was. A couple of facts: Vince Lombardi said that he was a perfect passer. Bear Bryant said that he was the best athlete he ever coached. John Madden put him on his All-Superbowl Team along with Joe Montana and Roger Staubach. Bill Walsh stated that Namath was "the most beautiful, accurate, stylish passer with the quickest release I've ever seen." Don Shula stated that Namath was "one of the 3 smartest quarterbacks of all time." As I have said - you didn't see him play. Those who did and those who played with him thought he was the best QB in the history of the AFL. Two years after the merger in his first healthy season in the 70s , he was an NFL All Pro. You just do not know what you are talking about. And your Babe Ruth analogy is ridiculous. Babe Ruth might be the greatest baseball player ever. Let me ask you this though. How could YOU possibly compare Ruth to a modern day player - say Bonds or Pujols - when you never saw Ruth play. You can't. Let me ask one more thing. You put Bobby Layne on your list of top QBs. Why? His TD to Int ratio was 196-243. His QB rating was 63.4. According to you, those numbers are terrible. I don't understand why you are not screaming for them to throw a blanket over his bust at the HOF. You just don't understand the game as it was played in earlier eras. Because of that, you have no credibility. I hate to be blunt, but it is time for you to shut up and stick to modern football.
^^^^^^ what he said hey junc, enough of the worn out PricewaterhouseCoopers arguing-by-numbers tact. You didn't see Namath and you're not going to change your mind (or anyone else's) about Namath. It is what it is from this point on, period. Game over.
This thread makes perfect sense on this board. For years many of ou guys knock quality QB's and support the shitty ones. I remember how much hate VT got here, but you fuckers worshiped CP. I think it's a self-esteem issue. So many Jet fans just feel they aren't worthy of good QBs. Anyone who kisses Sanchez's ass while saying Joe Willy was overrated is retarded, no offense. JW banged hotties AND won games, unless failchez.
Gale Sayers is a fading memory and the Stats don't lie, 125 in career rushing yards, 2 1,000 yards seasons and he will drop out of the top 150 very fast. He would be in my top 10 but that's because my lying eyes actually saw him play.
Bo Jackson, Gale Sayers, and Davis were all tremendous players with short careers. You can throw one of my all time favorites Earl Campbell in there too. Fair comparison to Namath, albeit a different role. But to say you'd trade all of Martin's illustrious years for 2 years of Davis prime is way off base. You'd have a better argument for Sayers or Campbell, but even then i wouldn't do it. Martin's 10 years are vastly under rated. Man has the best fumble percentage of all time......by far! i'd take that, along with his leadership presence on my team any time. You could set your watch by his efficiency in all facets of the game.
Gale Sayers was a combination of Barry Sanders and Devon Hester before he blew out his knee. And I also saw Sayers play.
One more thing. Namath's skill set with today's pro QB and pro offense rules would have been a perfect match. He would have remained much healthier because nobody would have been able to hit him in the pocket and with the no contact rules he would have picked defenses apart. He struck fear in defenses under the old rules. He would be unstoppable under today's rules.
Good work & strong verbiage, Joe Willie White Shoes. That should shut 'em up. It won't...but it should.
again, guys like Bo and Sayers didn't have a chance have medicore seasons b/c of their short careers, Joe played a long time and most of his career was mediocre. I will say this one more time, physical talent wise Joe is probably top 5 but I am judging CAREERS and his career was not a great one.
actually his one time all pro came in 1968 not 1972. In 1972 he was 2nd team all pro and Joe played only 5 seasons in the AFL while playing 8 in the NFL. There were 8 starting QBs in 1965, I would hope he'd make an all star team. '67 there were 9 teams, '68 & '69 10 teams. It wasn't exactly difficult to make an AFL all star team. Namath was the most important player in AFL history which is probably why he got the 1st team nod. Len's teams won more and his #s were better than namath's outside of yardage which can be meaningless unless you are scoring a ton. Those quotes are great, he was a perfect passer so Vince is right but he wasn't durable and wound up having a mediocre career. None of those quotes tell me he had a great career, they just tell me he was a great talent which we all can agree on. You don't compare Ruth to modern players, you compare him to his era and he dominated his era like no other player. I compare Joe to his era and he didn't dominate his era and wasn't even the best QB of his era. why did I put Bobby Layne on my list? played 14 near full seasons: -won 3 NFL titles -played for 4 NFL titles -top 5 in pass yds 9 times(led twice) -top 5 in pass TDs 9 times(led once) had 47 more INTs just like Joe but won much more than Joe, had more all pros, led Det to 3 Championshiops over the great Cleveland Browns including 2 w/ Otto Graham QBing the Browns which also included a late game comeback via TD pass to win by a pt. the defenders are MUCH bigger, MUCH faster, MUCH stronger than in Joe's days, Joe would have nbeen ripped apart in today's game. The bottom line is he played in his era and couldn't remain healthy.
How about reading my reply please? I love the guys who will say someone is right w/o allowing the other person to respond. My argument is rock solid and I stand behind it. The facts back me up, JWWS makes a great argument, as great as he can for Joe but you can't run away from the facts.
Interesting thread, but the sad thing for all of us that a topic like this surfaces and remains bouyant. Here we are at 3-5 and this is the conversation of the day. It's like the offseason has come already. Horrible.
