I love me some Cam, don't get me wrong, but his body language after the loss last night reminds me of why Tebow is praised so much for his intangibles. As good as I think Cam will be, he's not going to rally the troops behind him with these types of interviews an attitude. Even after Tebow's worst performances, he remained positive and upbeat. I think back to when I was 23-24 years old, and I can't really blame Cam too much... he's young. But Tebow is mature past his age. Cutler is much older, but having the same type of problem. That is why Cam, despite his talent, has a losing record right now as a starter. Tebow with less passing proficiency has a winning record. So with that, I wonder what everyone's views are on intangibles and how important they are for a QB. I think they are extremely important and underrated. For this reason, I'd start Tebow over a lot of guys. He just has the right mentality and leadership to pull a team together. Cam will get better, no doubt and is a future elite QB, not even remotely questioning his ability and potential here. I felt bad for the guy... he took that loss hard, but you have to go on TV and fake it for the media. You have to step up there and be positive while acknowledging that the team needs to improve. He looked like someone stole his bike last night pouting on TV like that.
Tebow is never or rarely down and out. If he makes some bad plays, he has selective amnesia. He forgets about it so that he can have a chance to make a great play later and give his team a chance to win the game. You see it time and time again. He's played terrible and then in the fourth quarter, makes some great plays to help his team win. This selective amnesia and his competitiveness makes him more "clutch" when the game is in the fourth quarter. Tebow is also a very confident athlete and person. You can see it when he walks on the field. He just looks like he believes in the talents he has. He also says he is playing for his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Who happens to not care if he wins or loses. He believes his God wants him to work as hard as he can in preparation, but will consider him successful based on his attitude and effort. That is how Tebow sees himself. So you have a very unique athlete in Tebow, that plays with great competitiveness, yet he plays loose and relaxed at the same time. Add to that fact that he is probably a good teammate and some of these characteristics can rub off on others during the game.
Intangibles are very important, but most pundits and internet scrubs have too narrow an understanding of intangibles -- equating them with "attitude" or something. Intangibles are the sum total of all the things about a quarterback that make him hard to beat. They include: 1. Toughness and lack of fear -- some quarterbacks get hit hard and it affects their game that day, makes them tentative. Others have a high pain tolerance and an ability to shut it out and keep coming. 2. Endurance -- some quarterbacks look great for a time, but fatigue affects their game as it wears on. Some (like Tebow) have world class aerobic genetics, and they are still springy at the end of the game, when the defense is tired. 3. Mental toughness -- some QB's have trouble "turning the tide" when a game is going bad, when things aren't working, when they've throw interceptions. Some (like Tebow) can shut out the noise, the critical voices in their head, the "doom and gloom," and take every possession like this one is going all the way. You have to play all 60 minutes, and it's incredibly difficult to struggle for 55, and then find a way to raise your game. 4. Avoiding the stat monitor -- they'll never admit it, but some quarterbacks let their stat line affect their play. Throwing a five yard dump off on 3rd and 11. Tebow killed his completion percentage last year because, among other things, he threw so much on 3rd down (the Broncos would run two predictable running plays on 1st and 2d), and Tebow would insist on trying to find a receiver past the marker (longer throws). It has a positive effect on winning, negative effect on stats.
Intangibles are intangible. Talent wins. Tebow has talent. Not enough to start at quarterback on my team in my opinion, but there's no denying it. Heart, passion, mental toughness, will to win, all bullshit without talent.
I would agree that he doesn't have the talent to start right now. I am interested in seeing how he looks next preseason, that will be his audition for a starting job on another team. It will also be his first preseason having the same coach 2 years in a row...theoretically anyway
I think you have a reasonable opinion on him. What is the success that Tebow can achieve? I don't know. Sanchez is highly talented and should start though. I will say that after last year, I want to know what the ceiling is for Tebow. And I like the guy so I cheer for him.
A reasonable statement. EDIT: I need to caveat my agreement with you. I think all NFL teams have talent. I think that what separates the merely talented teams from the winning teams are the intangibles. Take a look at the Giants last night. No Hakeem Nicks or Bradshaw. Their backups came right in and stepped up. That's good coaching, discipline, and leadership. It's execution. If championships were based on talent alone, the Cowboys would have been SB contenders for several years now. Tebow has enough talent to start on the Jets, IMO. I just don't believe that Sanchez has done anything to lose his job to Tebow at this time. Sanchez is talented, but has less intangibles. Don't underestimate their value. A more disciplined and well led team will beat an undisciplined talented team, so long as the talent difference is not ridiculous like DIV III playing DIV I.
Say what you will about Tebow in tears. There's an astoundingly large gap between this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvE42eAVXvI&feature=player_embedded To this. [youtube]U4VxVoYvqOw[/youtube] Edit(can't make cam's show up in here, mebbe I'm retarded.
Go to the store and buy a pound of coaching, a pound of discipline, and a pound of execution. Take pictures of it and post it for us all to see. They are infact... intangible. You can touch a coach physically, but you cannot touch "coaching". But... that is not the argument I was making. I was comparing their importance vs talent. These things are not talent.
Well, if you go that far, "talent" is intangible, too. All four of those things are important, much more so than "desire," "heart," "passion," "will," etc. and all the other bullshit sports fans typically refer to when they talk about intangibles. NY sports fans from the 80s will recall that there was a time when you could actually find someone who would argue that Lenny Dykstra was a better outfielder than Ricky Henderson. Trust me, talent, discipline and execution had absolutely nothing to do with the conversation.
Execution is the result of talent and intangibles working together. You cannot compare* Execution or Coaching to talent. They are results. That's like comparing the Giants' ability to score touchdowns to talent. They score touchdowns because they are very talented. They have good coaching because Coughlin is a talented coach. IMO intangibles are overrated because they can be taught and acquired. A talented player can learn how to be more disciplined, be a better leader, more articulate, more whatever etc.etc. etc. A player can gain/lose intangibles even at the drop of a hat. It appears Tebow has a great will-to-win, but suppose something happens to him and he changes his perspective. But you can't learn* talent though and you can have all the "intangibles" in the world but thats not going to help you outrun the defense or complete a first down. In this instance, I would never sacrifice a more talented player for a less talented one with more"intangibles"... I also think "intangibles" are way overused in football vernacular, especially by fans. Nobody knows what kind of intangibles a person has until they work closely with them. And even then its sometimes hard to tell! Someone might have "it" but might not be letting it out for whatever reason. You have absolutely no idea that Sanchez has less intangibles than Tim Tebow.. The Jets aren't going to score any touchdowns (execution) without talent on the football field... they can score touchdowns without intangibles though. Intangibles help some, but not to the degree that talent helps.
I would argue that the majority of the big time busts in recent nfl history have been because they had all the talent in the world, but their intangibles wer such that they squandered them. I don't think you can teach dont't be lazy any more than you can teach be faster. with the athletic ability of the average NFL player pretty much being equal with the exception of a few superstars, intangibles are all there are to seperate the winners and the losers. Talent in my mind being god given athletic ability(40 time etc) and intangibles being the mental aspects of the game which can't be measured.
Spot on. In addition it isn't hard to see that a Cam Newton is part of the "look at me, its all about me" crowd. When you are getting your ass-handed to you at 26-0, you score a one yard touchdown to make it 26-7 and your doing your Superman celebration in the endzone? Really? That to me was a huge red-flag on Cam Newton. It is obvious to anybody that watches the game that he has tons of ability, but his "all about me" attitude hasn't helped in rubbing off on his teammates with a winning effect. With all of the rookie records he set last year, the team finished 6-10. Now with all the hype behind him and all the "experts" prognosticating how the Panthers were ready to beat the Super Bowl champs, they were absolutely destroyed and are just 1-2. I couldn't even imagine Tebow acting in a similiar way. All of his celebrations are designed with one focus, to excite his teammates and the Fans. Tebow would never show his ass with a celebration when his team was getting blown out. Give me Tebow and his quirky looking throwing motion all day long over Cam Newton and his posturing for his next tv commercial.
This is a quote taken from Tim's website http://www.timtebow.com/ ; "I've lived my life by this quote from the time I was 6 years old: Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard - Tim Notke" Refer: Intangibles Intangibles are err,,,intangible or by definition,,,can NOT be measured. However, in team sports, can be observed, with the performance level of the team as a whole being the measure. It (intangibles) manifest itself most easily in the default leadership positions of a team. In football's case, the HC and the QB. IF a football team's performance level is elevated by virtue of a HC's behavior and/or a QBs behavior then they (the HC and QB) possess good intangibles. An easier way to understand intangibles is to consider it in the context of going to battle in a war, a life and death situation. There are some people that engender a higher level of effort from their fellow soldiers over others. The way to define that characteristic is 'good intangibles'. If that premise is accepted then defining some of the elements of 'intangibles' can be done. Some of these elements are; hard work, dedication, courage, intelligence, honor, humble, desire, etc. Some of these elements are encapsilated in the your words, "heart, passion, mental toughness, and will to win", and they are NOT bullshit, particularly in the case of someone who works as hard or harder than his peers, as in Tim's case. Talent comes into play relative to a person's ability to perform tasks. Some people have better coordination than others (talent). Some people have better peripheral vision than others (talent). Some people have better bone structure than others (talent). Some people have better reflexes than others (talent). If you can understand these concepts then you can see the wisdom of Notke when he says, "Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard" and understand WHY Tim works so hard. As for Tim having talents,,,I think it is clear he does, and we all do to some degree, DON'T YOU THINK?
I would say #2 is tangible actually. Physical endurance can be worked on and improved. Maybe you mean mental endurance to go through drops/o line penalties/ bad luck (for a QB) ? Most stars in sports in general have eyes on outside of the football world. That's why you see so many athletes in commercials and doing sponsorships. ALL players have one foot outside the sports trying to establish financial security. I think it's a little early say he has an "all about me" attitude and that it rubbed off negatively on the Panthers. And it's a little early to call the Panther hype unwarranted. They're 1-2. Long ways to go and they have a division win under their belt. Also, unless you are Tebow you don't know why he celebrates. Maybe he is motivating himself. Maybe the teammates. Maybe the fans. But the Cam Newton celebration does pump up the fans. I was actually more frustrated when Steve Smith did the banging himself on the head curse out the other team when he went for a long run after a catch. He didn't score. Scoring warrants a celebration in mind. Newton didn't do anything different than he usually does. It would be a red flag if he never did that celebration and he broke it out at that point (a la Tone doing the bird wings in Philly). My personal opinion. It's a little early to say Cam Newton is "me first". If Nike or whoever came to me saying here's x millions of dollars as long you do commercials, I would say yes. You would say yes unless you don't like easy money. I don't remember what, but Tebow has a Hanes commercial I think? Sanchez has Pepsi or Coke. Brady has Uggs. I'm sure Flacco's got something local. Peyton got's everything. Eli has a few. Jeter has Ford. LeBron has everything. Kobe has Nike. Durant has Sprint. Federer has Rolex/Gillette. Tiger had a lot. Kyrie Irving has a Coke/Pepsi one. I don't blame guys for doing commercials. I don't think it's an automatic "me first" indicator.
To go on since I am in a writing mood, intangibles are an interesting topic. People like to say Brady, Jeter, Jordan, etc have "intangibles" and Lebron, Arod, Peyton don't have these "intangibles". It really brings up the fact, if we assigning intangibles to players is self fulfilling? Do we say player x has intangibles because they win? Or do we say they have intangibles, and then they go and prove it? It seems to be more of the former than the latter. An example would be Durant vs Lebron this year. Lebron was clearly the better overall player all year, but everyone said Durant was "clutch", an intangible thing. There is no definite way to measure this. Shouldn't playing well for the first 42 minutes of a game to not even make it be close an intangible too? But anyways, now LeBron won and everyone says he has "it". But nobody said it before. Is it self fulfilling? We only say players have "it" after they win. Another example would be Arod. Arod never had "it" even though he was loaded on terrible teams and a tremendous hitter cannot carry a baseball team. Arod has one big year in 2009 playoffs and everyone says he found "it". He got "it" from Jeter. Maybe he just succeeded because he had hitters around him and he was surrounded by a solid team for once. To go on, has Brady lost "it"? The intangibles because he hasn't won a Super Bowl in a while? Everyone said he had intangibles, can you lose them? Intangibles are interesting because sometimes they are tangible things that people would rather explain away. It's always "intangibles" over a team was "lucky" even though at the same time these things can be equivalent. Interesting discussion. Good topic to discuss about.
My guess is Tim's celebrations are personal and has nothing to do with an ego based action to please either teammates or fans. The often seen 'after a TD muscle flex/scream' is probably just a kind of primal display most often seen when animals make successful kills. The often seen Tebowing is probably a simple prayer giving thanks for his talents. Just a guess ofc.
I think they can easily be lost and in the case of high performance team sports, is most often caused by an unhealthy ego. It most often goes to the 'humble' part of good intangibles but touches on dedication too. I think Namath is a good example of this. He changed after his SB win.
