He played how I thought he'd play. Can't believe some people were happy about him coming to this team.
It's sustainable to about age 30. (just like a RB). If he hasn't developed compensating skills by then, he won't ever.
I agree. He does. I wasn't implying he had 6 years to get better. I don't know enough of QB skills to guess whether it's incremental baby steps or if it's a "suddenly everything clicks" thing. I also don't know how much of this is mental versus physical. If it's mental then success will produce success. And you could very well have a eureka type of moment.
One thing I learned these last few weeks is that "sacks" in practice on Tebow have very little correlation to an actual sack during a live game. Tebow's escapability and ability to break tackles just doesn't translate to the TC sack.
I mean with this tirade the 2 of you went on you're begging for someone to out and say a few things right? If you were to "project" Sanchez's sacks you'd get 8 in a game? for -64 yards... OR 128 sacks in a season? For 1024 negative yards? You'd also project 0 points scored by the offense? ... All season? You must hear/read how stupid this type of "projection" sounds? How about if we project Tebow's 8.5 ypc? Which was higher per play then anything else on the team? The jets are going to be unstoppable right!? I mean Tebow projects to 8.5 yards per rush. /eye roll Quarterback play is not just mechanics. Yes.. Tebow's are not ideal. Does it hurt his passing, sure. Could they be improved, yes. Does his sub par mechanics mean he needs to stop playing QB? Nope, just like Rivers, Tebow is pretty unique and brings enough to the table otherwise to play the position. If mechanics are so important to overall quarterback success, then what pray tell, is Sanchez's excuse for being an inadequate career passer then? His mechanics look pretty good. Look. The offense was bad. Every player in it. Blocking was bad. Catching was bad, running was bad. ( I thought Tebow's passing was so-so to decent until he threw the INT.)
/headshake. As I said, I understand that Tebow came into the league needing to fix his mechanics. And I also understand that even last year, his mechanics were flawed. WRT the commentator saying "Tebow should have delivered that ball a little sooner", that could be a couple of things. It could be flawed mechanics and an elongated motion, or it could be identification/timing, i.e. he should have actually thrown the ball a second sooner All this still leaves us at the point that if you want to claim that Tebow's mechanics are still horribly flawed, then it would serve the conversation well for you to simply give a more detailed explanation of what you think the correct throwing motion should be. The ironic thing is that you already know and understand this which is why you DID go into some detail as to what you think he should be doing. All I'm asking for is a little more detail in what you described as to provide more clarity. Do you understand how vague this is ? " it should be elbow back with ball even with helmet, arm snaps forward, ball released. " "Ball even with helmet"? Should the ball be facing forwards? Backwards ? Sideways ? Straight up ? "Elbow back" ? How far aback ? Should it be back behind him ? Should it be out to the side ? As for your "stats", I still disagree with you Yo have to take into account things like drops and intentional throw aways. And you certainly did "read into them" as you happily touted that he would "project" to 8-16 over an entire game. I could just as easily argue that while he was 4-8 officially, he should have been 5-8 when you include Hill's drop and that you should subtract his intentional throw away, making him 5-7. That 5-7 would project to 10-14 which is 71.42% completion %. Now, one more thing to comment on, and that is your EDIT:. It shows how you are looking at this through extremely jaded glasses. You say that 50% comp% isn't much different than last year. Even ignoring what I pointed out above, that's still an improvement over last year. You point out that he was on pace to only throw a small number of completions for a game, like last year. That ignores that Tebow isn't the one calling the plays or how bad the protection was by the Oline. You have also ignored the eye test in pronouncing that Tebow is the same as he was last year. How many balls were bounced in the dirt ?? How many balls were 5 yards in front of, behind, over the head of, or short of the WR ? How many seriously wobbling ducks were there ? If you can't see a huge difference between his passing the other night, and his passing last year, then I have to seriously question what you were watching, or your overall judgement. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that he was a polished passer and was rivaling Aaron Rodgers out there. I'm not saying he's a finished product either, as he definitely has things to work on. But again, if you can't admit that he's already shown serious improvement over last year, that's a problem.
If you can't tell a difference between how he passed against the Bengals, versus how he looked last year, then I have to question whether you actually watched him last year.
Just watched a replay of the game. I don't see why everyone is flippping out. Its a preseason game and honestly on offense, outside of the spotty line play, they weren't that bad. People need to stop expecting the offense to turn into the Saints. We aren't going to be the saints ever. Very vanilla, doesn't look like a lot of effort went into game plan or anything. Sent from my SGH-T589 using Tapatalk 2
I watched him last year. He threw 8 passes this game. I'm going to say he changed for better or for worse based on those 8 passes. He didn't throw one in the dirt but I don't think he was throwing passes in the dirt one of every 8 times. He looked at his first read, if it was there he made a play. If not he tried to scramble and it was effective. He missed the LB coverage on Cumberland with one throw. He had the drop by Hill on the nice comeback route. He had the slightly high throw to Hill on the slant. He struggled with his consistency and he effectively made plays with his legs. Instead asking me if I watched him, why don't you tell me how you think he looked better or worse tonight based on 8 passes? He didn't look extremely better or extremely worse to my eyes. His plays ended up developing the same way they did last year. Anyone up in arms about my post hasn't explained why yet I got called a Liar and should be ashamed of my post so I clarified "He threw 3 short to intermediate passes off the top of my head. One dropped, one pick which was badly thrown, and one high on a slant that Hill caught and got popped on. Basically what happened last year from him. I haven't seen much change, but maybe I over estimated him last year? His problem was inconsistency with his accuracy. He still has that problem. Oh and he had the 3rd and 2 pass where he tried to take off before reading the play then tried to check back into passing mode and threw it out of bounds. Those are 4 short to intermediate passes and the same process and results as last year. You think he improved from last year, that means you thought he was even worse than I thought last year." Then you come and asked me twice if I watched a game I clearly watched and then if I watched Tebow last year which I clearly have watched. Yet nobody has said what changes were made. The one person said short to intermediate passes, so I went over 4 of them. Slant was high. Pick was inaccurate (was going to be a tough low catch) but was picked. Curl route was on target perfectly but dropped. And the 3rd and 2 was out of bounds, he got happy feet. What were these changes I missed? I think the difference comes from understand Tebow's problem. The more I watch and read about him as a Jet, I think more his problem was never accuracy but consistency. He can be on target, but he can't do it consistently. From last night, he still can't do it consistently in my view. If you think his problem was that he flat out inaccurate, then the game probably showed improvement since he was accurate on some throws. But from my view he is still inconsistent so I don't see any changes. I guess adding on, if you wanted to say what plays were called for Tebow you can say that was different since there seemed to be less deep routes. But he's still struggling with inaccuracy and consistency because he isn't consistently inaccurate. He is inconsistently accurate if that makes sense. But still effective runner of the ball when he wants to take off. Well that's Tebow for you.
[1] And one could take that projection for the little value it is worth and move on... or argue that Sanchez probably would have made a little juke here and a move there and a roll out here and the number of sacks would be lower. [2] Your statement assumes Sanchez is an inadequate career passer. He's not.
[1] You admit his mechanics are flawed. I show you a youtube video and an ESPN Sports Science video showing the flaws. Show me a fixed Tebow? [2] A correct throwing motion is on display in just about every NFL QB. You show me Peyton Manning and Tom Brady and say Tebow throws just like them. Now go back and revist [1]. Obviously you don't understand what you are saying either here or there. You should take some time and compare a good throwing motion to Tebow's throwing motion on your own so you have an chance at being objective and not just trying to defend Tebow to your "internet foe". [3] I don't invent stats. They are not "my" stats. [4] What? In his 8 pass attempts in preseason game 1, he had a passer rating of 18!!!! You thought that was better than last year, a whole freakin season?!?! [5] My friend, he hasn't shown improvement and its a problem. Which is why he is now on the Jets and will be used as a gadget player. Hopefully he contributes to some wins.
The kid should have been 5-8, with an intentional throw away, one deep ball off target and an INT, yet you want to say that he struggled with his consistency. That highlights just how insane some of the views are here. That would be a 62.5% completion %, but yeah, he struggled with his consistency. Dude, go back and look again, ALL his passes were on or very close to target, even the interception (which was a bad decision on his part, but the ball went where he wanted it to go).
And you said all QBs throw the same (except for Phil Rivers apparently), yet in the very video you linked to, the 2 demonstration QBs have different deliveries. Go figure. And I'll ask you one more time to explain, with a greater level of specificity, what you think a proper throwing motion is, as well as what you think Tebow is doing wrong TODAY, not last year, not the year before, not when he was back at Florida, and not when he was back at Nease. Your "projection" was ' And last year when he went 2-8 against KC he had a passer rating of 102. Seems that TDs and INTs skew the rating more than just a little bit. My friend, if you watched him pass against Cincy and you don't think he showed improvement, then I seriously have to question your judgement or your bias against Tebow. The really funny thing is that we could be talking about the things that he still needs to work on, but that's kind of hard to do when you won't even admit that he's already improved from last season. And if you go back and look at EVERY one of my posts relating to the game, guess what you won't find ? ANYTHING from me saying that he's improved enough to be the starter over Sanchez.
[1] No they have approximately the same delivery. Tebow has hitches and quirks that they don't have. Again, watch the video "Tebow throws football like a javelin". Its all there for you. [2] Stats are not mine. A projection is not mine. Its a number and anyone else could arrive at the same number. You are too hung up on disecting tebow to the point where he does nothing wrong and even stats are inaccurate. Well, thats not the way it works. Roger Marias and Barry Bonds don't get an astericks. We simplay know that stats tell one story. God, move on in your life man. [3] Yes, Tebow threw an ugly INT and that caused his passer rating to fall to 18. That is stats. [4] I haven't seen any great improvement in 8 freakin preseason passes. 8 PRESEASON PASSES. You think you have. Good luck in life.
Why in the world would there be any reason to look at a vid breaking down a pass that Tebow threw LAST YEAR when we are discussing his mechanics now ? Did you miss that he worked with Noel Mazzone and Tom House over the summer ? Tthis is getting downright silly. What next ? Want to link me to a video breaking down his mechanics while at Florida ? Oh, wait, you did that already as well. Funny thing is that you won't take a vid from the game that he just played and walk through what you think his problems still are. Additionally, you won't even give a more detailed description of what you think "proper throwing mechanics" consists of. Ah yes, stats tell the story that YOU want to hear, that Tebow is a 50% or less passer. Doesn't matter than factoring in Hill's drop would have put him at 62.5%, or subtracting the clear throw away would put him at 71.42%, because that gets away from your narrative. And it shows that in limited data sets, stats can be skewed. But hey, as long as you can cite the 18 passer rating huh ?? Yeah, for a guy who saw every pass that Tebow threw last year, I can definitely see a LOT of improvement in his mechanics and his consistency. Again, simple question. How many balls did you see thrown into the dirt by Tebow ? How many receivers did he miss by a country freaking mile ? I mean, for fuck's sake, this is Tim Tebow we are talking about. Remember ? He's the guy who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. Yet what did he do against Cincy >? He put EVERY pass that he threw on target, save for just being slightly off on that deep pass. Not with pinpoint precision accuracy to be sure, but he still hit them.
You don't want to hear it from me, ok, here it is from Kurt Warner... 50 seconds mark "I didn't see anything different." Have mr. Mazzone write Warner a letter. http://www.nfl.com/videos/new-york-jets/0ap2000000048885/Did-Tebow-impress
Yes he struggled with consistent accuracy. His pass to Hill that was dropped was perfect. His pass to Hill that was caught on the slant was high. His pass to Cumberland was picked was low. And his pass on 3rd and 2 went out of bounds whether that be to play it safe or he missed I don't know. http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012081051/2012/PRE1/jets@bengals#menu=highlights&tab=recap At 1:45 is his throw to Cumberland. That is going to be a shoe string catch if it is made. So no it wasn't on target or accurate. It was low. That ball is dropping fast. Accurate would be much higher on a rope and probably tipped or maybe slipped through. See the last sentence shows me why we disagree. You said Tebow was consistent because all of his throws had nice spin. I say his accuracy was inconsistent. There is the difference. You like how the ball looked when it moved in the air and that is went in a nice spiral, I was more focusing on how and where the receiver got the ball. Two things Tebow needed to work on consistency wise and we looked at two different ones. Wait I do think Tebow can hit a barn and I didn't say any passes went in the dirt. You missed the part of my post where I said did Tebow throw passes in the dirt every 8 times? I think it was less frequent than 8 passes las year So he didn't skip one pass in 8 passes, is that really an improvement from last year? I don't think so because I didn't think he skipped passes every 8 times. You seem to be taking completion percentage and equating it straight to consistent accuracy which isn't true. They don't go together completely. Tebow's passes were high and low and on target. They didn't consistently reach the receiver at the same spots. You obviously think worse of Tebow than I did last year which is kind of funny. He wasn't consistently accurate on his short to intermediate. They all were different catch points for receivers. Same problem he had last year. He ran the ball effectively and didn't lose it, same success as last year. When a play breaks down, he can scramble, same success as last year. He missed a defender on his pick, a problem he had last year. I don't see a difference in where the ball is being thrown and his success as a runner. You obviously are looking at completely different things than what I originally posted about. I was looking at his accuracy and running, you are looking at his formation and technique. Both very important, but not all of them have changed based on his passes. If you want to reply just quote this part so we don't have walls going back and forth: It was a small sample size so we don't have a lot to go off of. Going off the small sample size, receivers are still getting the ball in different spots. Not necessarily where it needs to be. Tebow still has that wanting to take off if he doesn't immediately see someone. That isn't necessarily bad or good. Also, he is still a good runner and takes good care of the ball. His learning new positions and offense hasn't hurt that. That's what I focused on and he didn't improve on that stuff in the small sample size we have. It is obviously way too early to judge, but the title of this thread was very inviting to answer since it was really off based and was setting the line and bait out which I took.
No need, I'll email Kurt and ask him to take a second look. From what he said, I don't know that he was talking in the detail that we are. What I'm talking about specifically is "how the ball came out". His motion was shorter, he was more accurate and he was much more consistent. That's the only thing that I have been addressing. Not his reads. Not whether he's identifying open receivers. Not whether he's taking the checkdowns (which he actually did twice). I'm not sure which part of this is difficult to understand.
If you watched Tebow throw last year, he was very inconsistent. He'd have a wide open receiver, with no one within 5 yards of him, and Tebow would often short hop the throw, or miss wide. It wasn't just once every 40 or 50 throws. WRT "accuracy". When I go to the range and set up a target at 100 yards, there are different rings on the target. There's a bulls eye, the size of which varies on the distance that you are shooting at. There also happens to be an X in the center of the bulls eye. Then, there are rings around the bulls eye that give different points. In short, there are varying degrees of accuracy. You don't have to hit dead in the center for it to be a bulls eye. Going further, you can be a coupe of rings out from the bulls eye and still be on target. This goes to your comment about "receivers getting the ball in different spots". The FACT IS, in this game, the receivers were getting the ball in places where they could actually catch them and that happened CONSISTENTLY. That didn't happen in Denver last year. If Tebow passed last year, the way he passed against Cincy, he would have had a 60% completion % instead of 47.5%. I believe I asked you to point out that bad throws that Tebow made. From what I can tell, you considered the ball that was a little high to Hill to be an inaccurate throw. If that's your biggest complain about Tebow's passing, then HELL YES, he has improved dramatically from last year.
