He threw 3 short to intermediate passes off the top of my head. One dropped, one pick which was badly thrown, and one high on a slant that Hill caught and got popped on. Basically what happened last year from him. I haven't seen much change, but maybe I over estimated him last year? His problem was inconsistency with his accuracy. He still has that problem. Oh and he had the 3rd and 2 pass where he tried to take off before reading the play then tried to check back into passing mode and threw it out of bounds. Those are 4 short to intermediate passes and the same process and results as last year. You think he improved from last year, that means you thought he was even worse than I thought last year.
Imagine how so many can see so much in so little. One preseason game and a couple of passes. I am reminded of the little old ladies who get together to dissect the ways to make a cake or clean an oven. Good times are on the way but either way it will not be boring.
Tebow was well Tebow last night check the first read not there run. I was more worried about oline and how shitty they were.
The first pass he was a quick slant I think. And it was solid. I think he checked into it at the line. Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Looked like the same Tebow to me. The guy is consistently inconsistent. Makes a great play followed up by a bonehead play. Same throwing motion. I don't know if his play shut up the "haters"
Dude, what game were you watching ? I'm not going to claim that Tebow had "Aaron Rodgers" precision, by any means, but his passing last night was just fine. The slant to Hill was just fine and well within the "norm" for an NFL QB. The other 3 completions were nice passes as well. Let's see, that covers 4 of his passes which were completions. Hill straight out dropped that pass to the curl. That would have put Tebow at 5/5 in this discussion. That leaves 3 other passes. 1 was deep right and OOB. I've watched "elite" QBs miss that pass at least once a game. Incomplete ? Sure. Really bad pass ? Nope. That leaves 2 passes. 1 was the INT. Good form on the pass (nice spiral), but it was one he just shouldn't have thrown. Bad decision on his part. Last pass in the discussion was the pass OOB on 3rd and 2. Go back and look at that play again. Conner came out of the backfield out of the backfield and was the target all the way. Defender came inside and was cutdown by RB (McKnight?) Defender tried to hurdle the block. Tebow pumps as he's wanting to throw the ball, but Conner is facing away towards the the sideline. By the time Conner is looking for the pass, a defender, #56 is right there in the passing lane. He scrambled and chucked the ball way out of bounds, i.e. threw the ball away. In short, out of his 8 pass attempts, the only one you really can whine about would be the INT. His stat line should have been 5/8, with an INT and with 1 of those being a clear throw away. Perfectly acceptable stat line for ANY QB (save for the bad INT).
I think there is just a fundamental misunderstanding here on what constitutes good passing... and the major misunderstanding is fundamentals. Tebow still has all of those hitches in his throws. After high school play, 4 years of college, 2 years in the pros and a training camp underway... - He is still holding the ball low like a runner. It should be up by his chin or ear ready to throw. But most of the time its not. - When he sees his target, it should be elbow back with ball even with helmet, arm snaps forward, ball released. Instead, he still snaps his arm back at the height of his jersey numbers, snaps the ball up to the height of his shoulder, snaps the ball back behind his head, then proceeds into the NFL throwing motion. Just consider Dan Marino's legacy as the quickest release in football history and praise for Brees to a slightly lesser extent- there is a reason why that is essential. CBs are alerted. Safeties get a jump. Lineman get their hands up. Tebow has a bad motion, bad fundamentals. - Even though its a small sample size, consider that Tebow projected across a whole game, would have gone 8 for 16. Both Sanchez and McElroy would have been more normal at 16 for 24 - thats twice as many completes. - If you want to take Tebow's running into account, sure he bailed himself out of a handful of issues. That's great. But also consider that teams strive to make their mobile QBs into pocket passers and the abilty to scramble becomes secondary or bonus. In this small sample size, but also seeing last years performances, the running is not secondary to good passing. The running is taking place instead of good passing. I don't want to crush Tebow here. He is not coming here to be a regular QB. But its really being an apologist to say that his play is acceptable as a QB. Its not.
Couple of point. First of all, if you projected Tebow's stats over a whole game, the only way you'd get to 8-16 is if he threw another Interception, which you can't presume, if Hill or some other receiver dropped another pass that hit them right in the hands, which you can't presume, and if Tebow scrambled and threw the ball away oob again, which you can't presume. Seriously, I know you are aware of how to analyze passing attempts. I mean, if Tebow threw 8 passes in a game, hitting receivers right on target all 8 times, and they dropped all 8 passes, would you bitch about Tebow going 0 for 8 ? Of course not. You'd look at each pass and say, he should have been 1-1, then 2-2, then 3-3, etc. Same goes for a QB scrambling and throwing the ball out of bounds instead of taking a sack, ESPECIALLY when the team is in FG range, it's the 2nd Q and a FG will tie the game. That's situational football, and a good decision. As for his mechanics, I'm not saying that he's a text book, prototypical passer. The things you mentioned wrt mechanics are things that he can work on to become an even better passer. That said, there are different schools of thoughts wrt mechanics. From what I can tell of your description, the football would never face backwards. Hold it high, bring it back by your ear and then fire it. Funny thing is that I can show you any number of photos and all sorts of videos of good and even "elite" QBs doing just the opposite. They swing their elbow out and back, arm is cocked, football faces backwards, then they bring their arm forwards, ball faces forwards and is released. Here's some highlights of Peyton Manning throwing passes with the Colts. In the first three plays, you can see what I'm talking about, but the third play gives you the best angle and clear view. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Ydz7QlDGQ Here's Brady doing the same: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMCFgD7McMc
D9, this is just simple math. 4 for 8 over 2 quarters projects to 8 for 16 over 4 quarters. That is what "projects" means. Thats what people do with stats. Is it guaranteed? No. Its a small sample. Last year is a bigger sample. This performance just happens to project much like last year. Coincidence? Maybe. On mechanics, sure maybe he can work on them. But through highschool and college and the pros, he hasn't been able to fix it yet. Usually, a QB enters the NFL with pretty good mechanics otherwise they don't get drafted. 95% of NFL QBs throw exactly the same way. There are no other schools of thought. A guy like QB in San Diego gets away with a funky throwing motion because he is really good - he is a rare exception. You can not show me all sorts of examples of QBs doing opposite of a good QB motion. If you think you can, then you may have misunderstood or I misexplained good QB motion. Its this simple, ball goes back at helmet level, ball goes forward and is released. If you like youtube videos, here are a few... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9R7vd78q1A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvWZajk2hXE&feature=related
The problem is that it is too simple and not accurate. QBs do not perform robotically or mathematically. In all fairness, he could have gone 1-10 in another two quarters, but he could also have gone 6-8 or any other multitude of completion percentages. You can't just assume he would go 4-8 again. And maybe some people "do that" with stats, but it is incorrect to do so.
Way to completely ignore drops and intentional throw aways. Oh, wait, if you took Tebow's 0-8 with 8 WR drops in my earlier example and projected that out over a game, I guess you'd say that Tebow would go 0-16 ? That's absurd. As to the vids, thanks, I've already seen them. But, I'm seeing something that seems to have escaped your notice in the first vid, and this relates to the "all QBs throw the ball the same" statement. Notice when they show two different guys after Tebow. Notice the difference in how each brings the ball back ?? Look at the ball position for each of them. See how the white guy basically turns the ball over. He's not simulating Tebow there. Maybe I'm not clear on how you've described the proper motion. Care to explain it in more detail ?
Yes, that what "projects" means. If he went 0 for 8 in two quarters, he "projects" to go 0-16 over a whole game. That is a statistical projection by definition. Its a projection, but not a guarantee. Flip a coin and you should eventually arrive at 50% heads and 50% tails. That's a statistical projection and is guaranteed. See how we use stats? If you want to learn more about proper QB mechanics, there are many videos available on youtube. You can look them up. The fact so many people talk about Tebow's mechanics, and the fact that Tebow tried to change his mechanics before the draft, should be enough for you to know that his mechanics hold him back at the NFL level.
You're seriously going to try and compare the odds of flipping coins to completion % ? That's laughable. Similarly, if Tebow throws 8 passes and the receivers drop 8 passes, it's borderline insane to "project" that Tebow will be 0-16 over an entire game. Here, I'll give you another one. Sanchez drops back to pass 8 times and each time, there's only 1 receiver out in a pattern and he's triple covered. Sanchez ends up throwing the ball away each time as the receiver never gets open. According to you, this would mean that Sanchez would be projected" to go 0-16 over the entire game ? See how silly that is ? As for passing instruction videos, I wasn't asking for information about what's on youtube. Rather, I was asking you to state in some degree of detail, what you think the proper mechanics are. Take it for what it's worth, but there's a thread here in this forum where someone posted a pic of Tebow throwing the ball in camp and they explained how he was holding the ball wrong. That his index finger should have been at the tip of the ball. On another forum, someone posted the same pic and talked about how bad Tebow's mechanics were (yeah, from the still pic), but didn't elaborate. I asked what he saw wrong with the pic and got a lot of "you can't be serious" responses. I then pressed on the question and eventually someone said that the point of the ball was facing the wrong way. I then posted pics of Brady, Rodgers, Brees and Manning passing the ball and in each of them, yep, the ball was facing to the rear. So forgive me if I dare to ask you to get into some finer details as to what you believe the proper mechanics should be, when we are actually discussing Tebow's mechanics. BTW, I'm readily aware that Tebow came into the NFL with mechanical flaws. I'm also aware that he worked on them over the summer with Noel Mazzone, Tom House and I believe he even threw with Steve Young.
[1] No I was explaining what a "projection" is. [2] No not according to me, according to a "projection" Sanchez would go 0-16. [3] Well, you should go look it up on youtube anyway. Sounds like you need to see it without anyone elses input. Just about everybody thinks Tebows mechanics hold him back - including Tebow himself - hence why he tried to change them and why he is working with so many to try to change them. "Tebow throws the ball like a javelin" is a frame by frame break down of bad mechanics. He hasn't changed them yet. The bad mechanics were on display the other night. Take for example, not my words, but the words of the announcer the other night on the dropped pass by Stephen Hill - (paraphrased) "Tebow should have delivered that ball a little sooner. The receiver looses concentration when they have to wait." You just want it to be the receivers fault, and it may have been, but not everyone thinks so. You ever hear the phrase "he was hearing footsteps"? It means receivers get nervous when they aren't moving - they start to get worried about the big hit. So we don't simply ignore a dropped ball or an INT as an anomoly but its a real world event - its recorded in the stats of the night. Other QBs have drops too. Sanchez arguable had one dropped by White - he could have arguably been 5-6 but he was actually 4-6. He could have gone 20-24 in 4 quarters but he "projected" to go 16-24 in 4. Its just stats. You don't have to read into them too much. I certainly didn't at any point here. Edit: Just because the original point seemed to get lost in all this disagreement over what a "projection" means, Tebow threw 50% of his passes complete the other night. Thats about the same as last year. Nothing seems to have changed so far. Tebow also was on pace to throw only a small number of completes if he played an entire game. That also is the same as last year. He threw one or so away and took off running 4 times. My only point was he was not completing passes which is something that we would rather a QB do - complete passes.
You are overreacting. I haven't said its a bad night. I said I haven't seen any change from the Tebow I saw last year. Like I said in my first post its a really small sample size, but I don't see a difference. The throws and results seem similar to what he was doing last year. The person said Tebow improved his short to intermediate passing dramatically. I think its the same as last year. Maybe all of you guys thought Tebow was worse than I thought last year? Again my first post on this I said I'm saying Tebow is bad or good off this performance, I am saying he looks like the QB he was last year in a small sample size. What's wrong with that? He is learning a new system and new positions and was traded. I don't see why everyone is yelling at me because I said Tebow looks the same as last year
It was a good check to. It was a high pass, something Sanchez did quite a bit last year. I would have to watch it again but it seems he could have led the receiver out much better. And in turn the high pass left Hill vulnerable for Mays who luckily missed.
I don't have a problem with him running 4 times when double digit yardage is gained. Why is this being treated like a problem? Because it negatively skews a stat?
Tebow's legs are a substitute for a short passing game. It's effective. The question is, "Is it sustainable?"
