Touche. Came up with the only Englishman to speak like an American everywhere but Friends cameos. Well played.
Not a fan of trading up ahead of the Phins (if a trade occurs). I'm holding out on the hope that they'll take QB Tanny and push every meaningful prospect down at least a slot
DeVito offers zero passrush...he's basically a permanent stop gap. I like our DLine too. But I would Luhluhluhluhlove it with Brockers chillen on it. Besides being a passrushing factor himself he really helps it indirectly by drawing double teams like no other prospect I've seen. I really feel like Brockers would be the gift that keeps on giving. I just haven't really heard any criticism to make me change my mind on him yet.
Wow, agree to disagree I think that Brockers is extremely over-rated and he declared because his stock is mostly based on potential and "supposed" athleticism. He just has good measurables and was decent on a VERY good D... sure he's very young so who knows what he can become but as of now I'm not impressed. That said I don't think DeVito is as bad as you make him out to be and 34-DEs in Rex's scheme aren't really supposed to make plays rushing the passer. Ngata was the exception but that's because he can get to the QB by himself with 3 people covering him.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The reason I'm kind of against trading up (although it always depends for who and at what price) is because I think we have need at positions where you can find good value in rd 2 & 3 (FS, WR, RT/G, TE) so I wouldn't like to throw those picks away. In the scenario you mocked for example Floyd would be EXCELLENT value and so would Perry or a T (Martin ?) sooo I'm not sure I'd want to trade up. Of course if Richardson falls...
Im a huge LSU fan...and even I wouldn't select Brockers at 16, let alone trade up. His best set up is in the 43 and it would be such a waste in a 34, even if on occasion we use a four man front. Brockers is a hell of player and absolutely has earned top 20 consideration, but hes not a good fit on our team
Ok so I really need you guys to spell it out because it sounds like we're starting to get somewhere at least. You both seem to think he'd be a waste of talent in our system. I'd like to hear why? I think we can all agree that he'd be a big improvement even on DeVito's run stuffing right away. That's his job description. Now tell me why he isn't going to go above and beyond the call of duty drawing doubles on passing plays and at the minimum pushing the pocket to create pressure and set other guys up? I don't know I haven't seen every game he has played or anything but from the videos I studied on YouTube I don't really see any evidence that he WOULDN'T complete these tasks. If he did just that and nothing else...isn't he basically worth the pick anyway? I understand that the DE's in a 3-4 aren't really supposed to be the hero they just need to fill their gaps, clog the run, and try to eat blocks for pass rushers to get good situations. But if you have a guy that does all of that really well, but then he goes and generates his own pass rush on top of that...why isn't that a dream scenario? When I watch video on him I see a raw, major disruptive force taking on all of the best OLine's in college and essentially having his way with them by the pair just pushing them all around. He seems to have an incredible knack for taking up all of the running lanes and then disengaging and wrapping the guy up when he comes by besides. I see his 'potential' getting nothing but better as many other people seem to think as well. The consensus seems to be that he's actually hurting himself by declaring this year rather than waiting next year when he'll be a guaranteed top 5 pick. Mambo, you seem to think the opposite besides. What am I missing?
Also I just want to clarify that I don't think DeVito is bad. I just don't think he does anything. He's a decent run stopper and a non-existent pass rusher. He's the guy that never does anything that's actually good...but he doesn't get run over and embarrassed either. He's a log floating on the line of scrimmage. You're never going to point your finger at him but as long as he's the starter the DLine can never go too far past ordinary.
Completely agree. I think Brockers is extremely overrated and don't think he would solve our passrusher at all. The DL depth in this draft is far to great to trade up for a DLineman, especially an overrated one at that. Only player we should be trading up for is TRich. Brocker, IMO, is all about potential and wouldn't have an big impact day 1.
Numerous reasons: 1. He's not that good. He has a chance to be a pretty good player down the line, but he's nowhere NEAR this auto stud some people seem to think he is. I personally don't think he's even the best at his position in the draft, and he's certainly not the best fit as a 34 End. 2. Putting him as a 34 End will not work well, both in terms of his immediate fit and his reaching his ultimate potential. He is an Al Haynesworth type potential, but that means that he needs work, just like Al did. Putting him as a 34 end means that he needs to spend the majority of his time locking up blockers, which he most likely won't want to do. His game is athleticism, and if he doesn't buy in then the leverage game will work against him quickly. 3. We just spent a first rounder on a 34 end. There's no way to justify that back to back years, especially when Devito was effective last season. If we're going to go off the trail and avoid the premium positions in Rd 1 I'd rather take Mark Barron, at least we know he can play AND he fills a hole.
That shows a pretty basic misunderstanding of what our Defensive Linemen are supposed to be doing on a play to play basis. A "log floating on the line" taking up two gaps and shutting down the run is what I'd like to call ideal.
This is the first thing I've heard said against him that makes a lot of sense to me. If he's basically going to be punished in our system if he develops naturally that is a big knock. For some reason when I picture his play it just seems like he creates the same effects that are supposed to be our schematic ideal with the added wrinkle of pushing the pocket and pressuring the quarterback. I guess you're saying that even if that's what he shows he's not doing it in the way we need him to do it to maximize his effect. I don't really buy that the potential isn't there or that everybody is wrong about him and he's totally overrated. It's a little easier to swallow that he can do it, just probably not here. I don't think I misunderstood it too much, I just quoted the ideal for you on purpose. My thinking, (read: probably misunderstanding) is/was that if you've got a guy that can do all that and add in extra pressure himself...that has to carry enormous value schematically. Maybe it's just really not, I don't know we've never had that guy on our defense for me to find out. I can take your word for it though if enough intelligent people are saying it's not worth the bother, or at least not with this guy. Again I can understand if I'm trying to more or less reinvent the wheel here and only making things worse in so doing. This was pretty much an original idea that came to me just watching some draft analysis video. I was looking for a good reason that it isn't a good idea with this thread...nothing more nothing less. If you provided those reasons, more power to you.
I think that you answered your own question. The ability to push the pocket and what Brockers does well are two different things. He can make things happen when asked to hit gaps and attack, but going up against blockers, keeping gap discipline, and pushing lineman back towards the QB is a totally different animal. I mentioned the leverage thing because it'll be hard for a guy his size to drive linemen back. Use his long arms to keep linemen off his body and lose them? Sure, but not the other.
No. Like GH said, 3-4 DE is not the position u want him playing because he won't be able to reach his potential. When people talk abou Brockers before pick 18 or so I don't get it. For him it's all about potential and how he can be an elite DLineman, but the fact is, is that he isn't even close to that now. It's almost like the Poe buzz... All the potential in the world, but Is going to need at least 2 years to learn and become some form of that player that people are looking for. We drafted Mo Wilk last year and he looks to have that upside, in no way should we be drafting another DE that high, let alone trade picks for him, with all of the holes we have.
Correct...I started to see the problem with the whole idea with your last post. If he's pushing around guys he's not eating blocks and if he's eating blocks like we would want and he's trying to inch his way in with leverage he's not doing what he's best at. It's a subtle problem that messes with the continuity of the overall gameplan...but you're right, it might be a serious one. I think that one of the things going on here is that his whole pass rush mentality and technique looks so raw and natural at this point that I kind of assessed his passrushing future as a blank slate. Perhaps I shouldn't have. Maybe he is what he is and he'll get better at doing that. But it probably isn't wise to make such a huge investment banking on the possibility that he's going to turn around his whole pass rushing mentality with good effect in the coming years.
The weird part is that I'm right with you on Poe. Even Cox and Still don't really tempt me much at all. Guess that I, like many others, just see whatever potential you guys downplay in Brockers and it makes my head try to fit a square into a circular peg. At least I'm not alone.
I see potential, but we are talking about trading up for a 3-4 end. That is where the disagreement stems from. IMO, the players we draft can not be project picks, the players in the 1st Three rounds have to be able to contribute a lot because we have multiple holes that aren't filled. This class is so deep at end that we could wait til the third and grab a very solid player... Not saying that I'm for that, bc I think the DL is one of the strengths now with a lot of depth. Keep in mind that Ellis can also play end some and he needs to get playing time to develop, bc he has all the potential in the world too.
the biggest problem with this scenrio is that tanny has a pretty strict discipline about not using future picks in the present year.so we would have to give up too much in this years draft to get up to 12. i am a big fan of moving up if there is a player worth getting however idon't think this is the year.now moving up into the late 1st round and sacrificing a 2-3 might be in the cards
I'm not really looking at any true DE picks before the 4th round for this reason. I thought Brockers was kind of a unique opportunity for us and I started to see this pattern playing out over and over again where he's falling to at least 11 before anybody could consider taking him very seriously. Still, the whole concept of this mock isn't necessarily a total wash. If we're proving that there isn't really anybody that deserves a trade up aside from maybe an unlikely Richardson tumble I think the case for trading back becomes even stronger. Brockers will most likely not make it past the Cowboys if he even gets that far. We're probably looking at even one or two more slots getting filled up on Tannehill or another DT like Poe/Cox. If we don't get lucky to have DeCastro or Kuechly lasting to our pick we've got a great fallback option trading back. We'd certainly secure an answer at RT if we went that way. We could think about Hightower or Upshaw if he lasted again. Perry and Branch as well. We'll have more options than we know what to do with if we trade back, so it should take someone special to NOT trade back in such a scenario.
