Kyle Orton is extrmely overrated, he's a stat guy. He can't play under pressure, w/ Orton we probably have a similar season, w/ Orton in '09 and '10 we don't have postseason success. I don't get people's infatuation w/ Orton, he lost his job to Tim Tebow and the team got much better.
I would have to disagree with you on that. I at least think it's debatable. Personally I think they are very close to equals, and i definately don't think it is by a wide margin either way. I probably wouldn't say Henne was better before this year, and I know he only played in like 4 games, but he really did look good. I really wish he was able to play the whole year because he was a different quarterback from the years before. He went from staring down recievers, being a robot in the pocket, and throwing those boneheaded picks, to scanning the entire field, moving around to avoid the rush and even running for 1st downs, and not throwing any picks. Now in no means am I saying he is good or great, I am just saying he made huge improvements, much more improvement than sanchez made, and IMO he actually looked like a competent quarterback. Mid level to upper half, as opposed to bottom 10. Now you guys just gotta hope that having a new OC will help Sanchez as much as it helped Henne. So yea I do think he is better than Sanchez and will outplay him in training camp. Again, I think you can make an arguement either way. But by no means do I think Sanchez is better by a "wide margin". But my main point of the whole thing was that "IF" he outplays Sanchez the Jets might have a problem on there hands because they wont give him the start. If you really think there is no chance of that then I guess there is nothing to worry about. But I think they have to be careful because not only do I think there is a chance, but I think he would
Miami has had playoff caliber talent around the QB, in 2009 w/ 3 games left against 3 teams that didn't make the playoffs Miami needed to win 2. henne was brutal and they lost all 3. In 2010 he struggled all year, this year he struggled early and Miami was awful w/ him at QB. Henne has a syronger arm, that's about the only area he is better than Sanchez.
I agree with all of that. Edit: Except for him struggling early this year, he didn't win the games, but I wouldn't put the losses on him. And like I said, if not for last year (I know it was only 4 games) I wouldn't be saying this. But with a new OC Henne did a complete 180. I'm sure you don't care enough to do this, but if you watch some games from 09 or 10, then watch the 1st game of the season against the pats, that quarterback looked way better than any game Sanchez played this year. I know they lost and all of that, I'm just saying watch Henne play. He was accurate, mobil, he scanned the whole field every play. It's crazy but if you watch Henne in 2010 the guys head DID NOT MOVE. It was infuriating. In the first few games this year the guys head was on a swivle, and he had great pocket presence in avoiding the rush and making the right throw or scrambling. So based off those 4 games, yes a small sample size, I think Henne is better, and he showed he can learn a new system very well. Again, yea the argument can be made that Sanchez is better, but I don't think you can say "By a wide margin". Just my opinion. And IF sanchez does get outplayed in training camp which I think is a real posibility, I think that could cause even more locker room issues.
He put up some garbage time #s up against NE and many people think he was all of a sudden good b/c of that. Chad Henne did not improve in 2011.
Junc, Your intitled to have your opinion, and I enjoy debating with you, but this time I just gotta to you that your flat out wrong. Again, watch a game from 2010, and then the first game against the pats, he was a different quarterback. I'm not even talking about the 400 yards or anything. He avoided the rush, he scanned the field on every play, he didn't throw a single boneheaded pick (only pick was last play of the game, hailmary type situation). All of those things are things that he NEVER did in 2010. To say he did not improve just shows that you either didn't watch the game, or you did but you didn't pay attention to Henne in particular. I have no reason to pretend he improved. I admit he sucked in 09 and 10, why would I say he was good in 11. I believe when he got hurt he had around the 10th highest quarterback rating. Again, I dont care AT ALL about the numbers. I care about what I saw him do.
We are all entitled to our opinions, don't take offense if I disagree. Most people think henne improved b/c of that NE game where he put up decent #s in garbage time but that doesn't impress me. His next 3 games he threw 2 TDs and 3 INTs including losing to a bad Cleveland team and looking lost vs. Houston. Maybe he made some slight improvements but it wasn't translating into better play for the offense and the O got much better when he went down.
Sometimes I just get a little heated because I feel bad for the guy. He worked his butt off during the offseason and really took control of the team. He really played well for first few games (pretty much the only player that did) then he gets hurt. Nobody really took the time to notice how much better he did look. But obviously they lost all the games he started and thats all people notice. But if you guys end up signing him (I just read an article on nfl.com that said the jets were seriously looking into it) watch the game against the pats and pay attention to henne. Then let me know what you think. If you really don't see improvement thats fine, we all see things differently, I just thought it was pretty obvious
Yea by no means did he play great the next couple of games, and the last drive against cleveland was pretty dissapointing. But he also had alot of bounces not go his way. Marshall dropped a few touchdowns, deflections turned into interceptions, but thats football. I dont know if he could ever carry a team, but again, I'm just speaking on the improvement, ignore the stats, just the way he played. Much different than years prior. And yea the O got better after he left and same with the defense. I swear, that lockout affected our team I think more than any other team in the league. Guys were overweight, cramping up, it was a mess. Very dissapointing season. I just wish henne could've played the whole season. I think he earned the opportunity with all the hard work he put into the offseason.
I don't understand why you are saying that the offensive line issues were all because of Sanchez. I mean, did you NOT pay attention when Ferguson and Hunter were getting owned one on one? Did you ignore the point about Sanchez getting hit often a few seconds after the snap? Did you ignore the fact that he had a neck injury? It seems to me that YOU are the one cherry picking because you are only focusing on the negative. I acknowledge the negative, but also show the positive. (and the positive mathematically outweighs the negative, but fans focus on negative so there you go). You can blame Sanchez all you want, but a lot of the times receivers were simply not open, so when the line sucks and you have a guy rushing at you, you have a choice. Force a dangerous pass that risks getting picked, take the sack, or throw it away. Unfortunately if he's in the pocket there isn't much choice. Let me ask you this. If the line struggles were only because of Sanchez holding the ball too long, then why did they get worse from 10 to 11? Sanchez didn't have that issue in 2010, why would he suddenly start that in 11? But again, you ignore that his comp%, TDs, yards, rating and TD to pick ratio which were ALL IMPROVED. How does he improve in all those categories yet played worse? There is NO QUESTION in anyone's minds that the line regressed significantly, and it certainly is not just Sanchez. Sanchez still has room for improvement. If you believe the line played above average last year, then you are blind and don't pay attention to the games, plain and simple. I will admit that in 2010, he did have trouble finding open receivers, but I did not see this often in 2011. Yes, there were a few, but compared with 2010 he improved there as well. This year is was more about receivers not getting separation while the pass protection was collapsing. You can't pin that just on Sanchez. A lot of the hits he didn't even see coming because the line picked up the blitzers properly, but just failed one on one. I understand that's going to happen every now and then, but you absolutely cannot pin those on Sanchez. He wasn't responsible for more than half the sacks. You are saying that Mark held the ball too long, but would you have been happier if he forced those bad throws every time, resulting in more interceptions? What if he threw 28 picks like Eli Manning last year? Running opens up the pass, just like passing opens up the run. This is why a balanced attack is usually the best practice. Again, 2009 and 2010 are great examples of how the run game, enabled Sanchez to make some killer plays off the play action fake. Remember that bomb to Edwards in the Colts AFCC game? I'm not saying Sanchez is elite and should be passing all the time to open up the run. Our team is built for the opposite. We ran the ball effectively the last 2 years because we established the run early. This year we often passed early and tried to work the run in later, but for the run to really be effective we need to pound it in there more often. In 2009 we put on a running clinic. In 2011, we didn't establish it like we did the past 2 years. So again, if you look at Sanchez in 2009, when our run game was the most successful, was it because people feared Sanchez's arm? Of course not, it was because we were persistent and kept pounding it in there, wearing down the D line and allowing for big breakout runs late in the game, plus the offensive line was great! Besides the crappy oline play, the other reason the run game didn't work as well was because we didn't have receivers that could stretch the field. Of course they're going to stack the box every time, since we have no legit deep threat and Holmes is constantly doubled. It wasn't about Mark's arm, we saw him throw bombs to Edwards over the previous 2 years, but not this year. Plax can't get separation, Mason was terrible, we have a revolving door at receiver. To me, it's obvious Sanchez will break out next year. He was having a very good season this year before he got hurt, but those last 3 games really dragged down his stats, yet still showed small improvement despite everything being against him.
It's not obvious to me that Sanchez will ever break out. He may just get 5-10% better year after year until he's 28 and a thoroughly average QB statistically speaking. I think the things he brings to the table, alongside his flaws, make hm a very attractive long-term signal caller for the Jets if that's how thing go down. I just don't care all that much if he's a dominant QB in the regular season because those guys are becoming a dime-a-dozen these days. Most of them couldn't buy a playoff win in January if you handed them a 90% off coupon. I care that he seems to have the knack, the "it" thing, going for him in the post-season and regularly helps the Jets win games they have no business winning against superior teams. Bring the team up to a championship level and there's nobody I'd rather have going into Pittsburgh or Baltimore or New England in the playoffs to try to snatch a win. Fail to bring the team up to that level and it doesn't matter if Superman is playing QB for us because eventually the Jets will either run into Superman's big brother or a championship caliber team and they'll lose that game most of the time. The other thing is that Eli Manning did not break out in his 4th season. Statistically speaking seasons 3 and 4 were almost identical as was Eli's maddeningly inconsistent play. In fact his 4th season was worse than his 3rd season in a bunch of different ways. But he did do the "it" thing in the playoffs and Super Bowl and so the Giants won their Super Bowl. The Jets should be spending this off-season trying to figure out how to raise the team to the level that Mark Sanchez contributions become meaningful again. Spending the off-season trying to improve QB instead while the team-wide talent deficit against the elite teams remains is going to be an EPIC fail.
What really infuriates me is this exact fact. Sure, it is a passing league and whatnot, but at the end of the day, the game of football is STILL a team sports. That they fail only manifests that the team is not functioning like it is supposed to. Like I have posted in other threads for the umpteenth time, if you cannot protect your QB, your QB can't pull off that magic for you either. You can close your eyes and cover ears, and say Sanchez sucks so bad and whatnot, but think about it. The OL play has regressed considerably. Don't just take my words for it - Jets rushing average per carry has dipped down from 4.4 to 3.8. That's a HUGE drop. Ok? On top of that, Jets OL gave up twice as many sacks (and a lot more pressures) than they did a year before. Now, pinning all that on Sanchez makes sense to you, or anybody? Sure looks like a brilliant call to me! In short, Jets talent level do not quite measure up well against the top tier teams. The defense is literally filled with donkeys and JAGs all over the board, and the offense is thoroughly fucked up squarely from up top with that gigantic mutant shit they were trying to install and run. This team, with all these problems and holes, made it to AFCGG twice in a row. You cannot deny who was behind all that. (Sanchez had quite a few of these near-impossible come-from-behind victories in his first two years already.) Ok. Maybe he didn't do it all (he had Braylon helping him out, and OL that actually protected him.) but you cannot deny he was a big part of it. So now, we should lay off the kid, and think about how to upgrade the talent level of the roster in general.
I never did say the problems with the OL were all because of Sanchez. The OL got worse from 10 to 11 mostly because of Tanny. He replaced Woody with Hunter, and failed to replace Turner when he got hurt. This effectively brought the OL from a top five OL to a top fifteen one. Again, I notice that the OL was in the top ten lines based on number of Qb hits, but will give you slightly above average overall. In short they may have gotten worse, but they were not as you can insist until your face turns blue a below average line. Three players on teh line went to the Pro Bowl. I would say myself Ferguson did not deserve it, but at the same time he was NOT a below average LT, either. The thing is, Sanchez Fans such as yourself go to great lengths to throw the whole rest of the team under the bus before they acknowledge he is not that good. The whole rest of the team. That's what makes a Sanchez Fan. Fans more of him than the team. Does that mean I think the OL had a great year? Of course not. Did I say they played just as well as in 10? Nope. Never. But it seems to me the rest of the team should not have to play exceptionally well in order to get even a somewhat below average performance out of Sanchez. Sanchez Fans implicitly are saying the opposite, that the OL, the running game,the receivers, all have to be top ten at worst before we can expect to see Sanchez perform at something approaching, if not there yet, average level of performance. In his third year, with over fifty starts, he's far below average, and showed no real improvement over the year. He may have been hurt a bit, but that's the NFL. Tough it out. At no point this past year did he play very well with any consistency. Feel free to be optimistic, but I am not drinking the same kool aide you are. And ftr I watch the games just fine. I don't know what you are watching, but you know what? AT this point I don't really care. Have a nice day.
Of course yoc dropped in the running game. You don't think that has something to do with the opponents' stacking the box, and not fearing Sanchez's arm? Does it have ANYTHING to do with that? ANYTHING?
Sanchez was a better QB in the first half of the season last year than he was in 2010 when the Jets could run just fine. Go look it up. That no Int's streak early on also came with few TD's and low YPA. The idea that Sanchez was "better" somehow in 2010 than 2011 is a fallacy. He was clearly a better QB last season and still the Jets could not run. Not because the opponents were stacking the box more but because the offensive line wasn't blocking as well. The 2008 Jets had 3 star caliber linemen in Mangold, D'Brick and Faneca. They had one very good journeyman in Moore. They had a JAG in Clement. The 2009 Jets had 4 star caliber linemen in Mangold, D'Brick, Faneca and Woody. They had one very good journeyman in Moore. The 2010 Jets had 3 star caliber linemen in Mangold, D'Brick and Woody. They had one very good journeyman in Moore. They had one JAG in Slauson. The 2011 Jets had 2 star caliber linemen in Mangold and D'Brick, They had one very good journeyman in Moore. They had 2 JAG's in Slauson and Hunter. That's why they couldn't run last year and couldn't pass protect well. The talent thinned out and declined.
I hate to be the one who says anything positive about a Jet player, but I was thinking about Sanchez and his progression as an NFL QB - I've come to the conclusion that he had a better year than most people think as a passer. First let me include this disclaimer. He is what he is. It is likely he will never be the kind of QB who makes the people around him better, a la Brady, Brees, etc. He will never be thought of as a highly accurate passer. However I DO believe it you put him in the right offense with the right people around him, he has qualities to take you where you want to go. Besides your team is essentially stuck with him for the next 2 years so why not look at the bright side. Here are the 3 things I think the Jets have to do to help make Sanchez successful 1. Put him in an offense where he only has to throw the ball around 25 times per game. The more he throws the ball, the more chances his flaws will be exposed. The Jets are wisely going in that direction with a commitment to go against the league grain, and create a run first offense. This not only limits his throws, it also puts him in position to throw more play action passes, which is one of Mark's strengths. 2. Improve his OL and receivers - I don't see as many Jet games as you guys do. But in the ones I've seen, when Sanchez drops back and throws in rhythm he is very accurate. When he is comfortable in the pocket, he can even find the 2nd and 3rd options. However its when his first option is covered and he starts to feel the heat, his footwork comes apart and the inaccuracies increase dramatically. So get him receivers who can get separation. Get him an OL that will make him more comfortable in the pocket. (like you had in 09) 3. Get him to hold on to the ball - This is the easiest one to accomplish. He just has to develop more awareness of the pressure. Brady has lost 5 fumbles in 3 years. Sanchez lost EIGHT. Can you imagine the impact if he just cut that in half. In total between picks and fumbles Sanchez was responsible for a unsustainable 26 TO's Imagine the impact of cutting THAT number in half. Now within his skill set, I think he'll be a better and more productive QB next season. Plus all the things the Jets need to do is within their reach over the next couple of years. However if Jet fans want Sanchez to be the guy who "carries" a team on his shoulders, like Brady, then they are just looking at continual disappointment. BTW-early in his career Brady had 3 straight year where he lost 5 fumbles. (and averaged 12 fumbles/yr) He recognized the problem and its improved greatly. So it can be done. Its not talent. Its a matter of want to.
BB, with all due respect, are you high? The kid has no arm? Like this? [YOUTUBE]qkopzVbcXkQ[/YOUTUBE] On top of that, did teams really respect the aerial attack from Sanchez that much in the first two years to ease off on the rushing attack? WITH A FUCKING ROOKIE QB UNDER THE CENTER? Seriously, are you high? (FYI: Jets had their best rushing result in 2009, in Mark's rookie year; running healthy 4.5 yards a carry, and 172 yards a game, the best in the league.) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- True, Jets didn't get much production downfield, but pinning that on Sanchez is ludicrous. That one goes straight up to Tannenbaum, not Sanchez. Ok? P.S. Jets passing scheme was truly a complex maze of clusterfuck that nobody could get a production out of. (List includes: Pennington, Favre, Kellen Clemens and now Sanchez.) Now, you tell me, how Sanchez is to blame for the offensive woes, but Schottenheimer is not to blame for the half decade of ineptitude on the offensive side.
Exactly. We have to go in this with Sanchez as our guy. We can win with Sanchez, we have won with Sanchez. Last year, the OL and WRs regressed around him, and it's not like Sanchez's performance last year was all bad. He made a few steps forward, he just made a few steps backward at the same time. We need to focus on getting the team in place around him. If Sanchez is worse than he was last year, we'll reevaluate after the year. And if we want to bring in someone like Henne to be a backup/competitor with Sanchez, I'm not against that. But Sanchez is our starting QB, let's rally around him.
