SO people that post a lot on TGG know more about football than people that dont? :up: Everyone knows TGG is largely a circle jerk of about 30 members that insist their opinions be worshipped. If they are not worshipped its personal insults. As for Sanchez - after 40 games I am just getting tired of have a rookie QB. Because thats about how he plays.
JE, I think that Sunday's loss to a team with a bad defense to start with, made worse by an injury situation, made even WORSE, by a injuries during the game, was much more revealing than the December Debacle last season. It exposed flaws in the Jets team that go far beyond this season, 1. You have a QB who after 3 seasons is what he is. A 55% passer, whose most consistent attribute is his inconsistency. Brilliant one moment, head scratching the next. He will NEVER be able to "carry" a team. He can't make the players around him better a la Brady, Rodgers, and Bress. That being said, he has shown the mental toughness and ability to play well in big games, that the Jets shouldn't jettison him. However they have to build a team a better team around him....and this is why I think the Jets are in some trouble. 2. The fact the Pats were able to generate that kind of a pass rush with only 4 people makes me wonder where the great OL's the Jets have had in recent years has gone. If the Jets are going to rebound they would have to add 2 players that would be upgrades over what the currently have PLUS some realistic depth. They are a single injury away from disaster as it is. 3. Keller is a plus receiver as a TE, but the game exposed what has increasingly been a nagging question about him. Is he tough enough. Sunday a depleted Pats squad took him completely out of the game. The Pick 6 was a perfect example. Tracy White, who is a career special teamer and certainly not a guy you want playing regular defenses. On that play he decleats Keller off the LOS, which allows Ninkovitch to jump the RB and make the pick. The replay shows that if Keller gets off the LOS Ninko would have stayed with him and LT would have been wide open. He only moves to LT AFTER Keller hits the ground I think its becoming clear that Keller can be taken out of the game if you line him up on the LOS. He is NEVER going to be a 2 way TE. So the Jets are going to have to make a big investment in adding your version of the Gronk, and BB drafted a LOT of guys, some were decent players but none were complete, before he lucked into him;so its not going to be easy. 4. You also need to invest at the RB position. Greene looks like your version of BJGE a hard RB who gets what's there, falls forward, and rarely loses yards, but like Benny isn't going to scare opposing DC's. LT is toast, and I find it curious how few snaps the Jets have given McKnight thus far. I think its telling......and Powell is......a huge cipher. Right now it seems like the Pats are in slightly better shape at the RB position than the Jets, and that should be very troubling to Jet fans since in their style of play they NEED to be one of the better running teams in the league, The Pats running game can afford to be mediocre and STILL be complimentary. 5. You also need to find a better back up QB. 6. Your WRs need a big upgrade. You need to find a field stretcher like the one you HAD in Edwards. Holmes is a good receiver but certainly isn't worth the 10MM/yr you are paying him (currently the 49th most productive receiver) You need to replace Plax, who rarely becomes relevant unless the Jets are inside the opponent's 10 yard line. Kerley is a nice prospect but certainly not proven....and that's it for the Jets. So the Jets not only need to invest in skill at the position, but depth as well 7. Your LB situation for next year will also be in need of a revamp. You haven't been able to replace Thomas, and while Pace and Scott are decent LB's they are vastly overpaid and aging. So aside from Harris (one of the most under rated ILBs in the league) the Jets will have some big Questions next season. 8. I actually think your DL situation is pretty good. A nice mix of some young guys who have great upside and solid blue collar vets. 9. Your secondary is much better shape than most of the league. With the development of Wilson, you have 3 legitimately talented CBs, and while many here have keened for better S's, I doubt there would be many Pats fans who would take the Jets Safety situation in a NY minute. In fact if you look closely at the game for most of the time it was less that the Jet's S's were out of position against the TE's as they were physically mismatched by Gronk, which is going to be the case until he runs into a 6'5 250 lb safety. So between the OL, LB, WRs and TE's the Jets need to hit on a lot of guys, just to keep up with the division. And while from what I gather, they aren't cap strapped, they won't be able to "buy" their solutions in the FA market. BTW - I'm not oblivious to the Pats areas of weakness (all on defense), but they have fewer problems that the Jets face. They are set on the OL, TE, WR(a field stretcher would be a nice luxury, but the success of the Pats offense shows that it isn't a necessity) and RB. IMHO the Pats need to draft the best S available in the draft at the bottom of the 1st round PLUS sign one of the 3 best FA safeties that are coming out next year. They also need to get a young outside pass rush threat, another big CB and coverage ILB So my question to you Johnny isn't whether the Jets have regressed this season, but whether that regression will continue next season? BTW -II - as an aside I have to ask you WTF the Jets never threw about a half dozen 20-30 yd back shoulder fades against the Pats defense. Especially after McCourty went out, there was no way they could have defended Plex on that route Very curious
I didn't say that. I said that the people who only show up to "contribute" when they want to complain and tell everyone how "wrong" they are about things are very fucking annoying. Where are all the geniuses when things are going well or Sanchez has a good game? Speaking of which, how can it not be acknowledged he has improved a great deal since he was a rookie? There are plenty of QB's he is outperforming.
I understand that this loss has you excited. Some of the points you make are correct: Yes, the truth hurts. You ain't whistlin' dixie. Mmhm. Overpaid? Ideally, yes. At the time the Jets weren't a prime location. But sure, they are not the future. Then there's a lot of nonsense. Some of the reasoning going into the Sanchez pick was the following: he has the physical ability to be very good not great, the character and work ethic to be great, and enough football experience to be hot garbage. No shit, Sanchez in his third year isn't Brady, Rogers or Brees. The informed debate about Sanchez is: will his work ethic eventually translate into excellence or is he too limited? The ancilliary debate is: does his slow development hurt the team more than his future contribution would help it? The endless stupid debate is "does he suuuuuuck?" Any comment, such as yours, that draws permanent consequences in capital letters from a limited number of games belongs in the latter. You follow up with some weird stuff about how tough Keller is based on a single play. I'll take your word for how instructive it was. Then you compare Shonn Greene to BJGE. That sounds like a fascinating debate. Please go to any website that lists the age of the Jets players and their foreseeable contract renegotiation periods to satisfy your curiosity. But you seem to have listed all of the problems already. An aside before I get to yours: were you ever really terrified of these guys you say we have to replace, of Pace and Thomas, Greene and LT, Sanchez and Keller? I look at the Jets and I see a team that is overhyped but intelligently so - the players buy into it and overachieve; the fans buy into it and buy stuff; opposing fans can't shut up about the Jets. My analysis is that the current FO decided to build this team slowly while making a lot of noise to get airtime. If we were win-now, we'd screw our cap and trade off draft picks for veterans. Instead of that we've been drafting project guys from small schools almost systematically and starting one-year-college-starter Mark Sanchez at QB. And Rex has us winning nonetheless. I haven't rewatched the game but my impression was this: your pass rush spanked our O-line. In the 2d half, we were constantly keeping guys back to protect while you rushed 3-4. Extra crap players in the secondary + good coaching > fewer good receivers + bad coaching + a young QB desperate not to throw picks.
First thanks for your thoughtful response I'm not sure what you mean here. What do you think the Jets are going to do with Scott and Pace. Keep them, get them to restructure, or let them go and need to replace 3 of the 4 LB positions for next year. let me articulate the my Sanchez position better. I absolutely don't think Sanchez sucks. But he does have limitations. Hey 28 teams have QBs who have "limitations", so Jet fans shouldn't go nuts when this is mentioned. As far as comparisons go I have always thought of Sanchez in the Matt Hasslebeck model. Hassleback has been a good NFL QB for a lot of years, Its far from an insult, Finally, you comments about Sanchez's inexperience does have SOME merit. While by the 3rd season, what you get is usually what you will continue to get, However there are some rare examples where guys who have Sanchez's problem HAVE vastly improved AFTER their 3rd year. I wasn't basing my opinion on a single play, but using that single play to point out the reason that Sanchez's favorite target had only one significant catch during the game and was rarely targeted. If the Pats could take out the most productive receiver the Jets have with the likes of Tracy White and Sterling Moore, think of what truly talented defenses will do. Do I detect a note or irony here. :wink: But seriously my point is that BJGE has more value to the Pats than he would to most offenses in the league. My second point was that while the Pats can get by with a mediocre rushing attack, the Jets, in their style, need to have one of the better running games in the league Its less about whether I fear any of those players, and more about what the Jets have to do to improve their team. All of those players are good, but not great. You are paying Pace and Scott to be impact players and clearly, while they don't suck, they aren't making an impact. Greene is a good solid RB, but on a team that needs its RB to be more, LT is a non factor. Watching him now is like watching Fred Taylor in his last year as a Patriot. this is a very interesting take. Regardless of my personal feelings about Ryan, he was EXACTLY what the Jets needed to become relevant in their own market. The Jets needed to change their culture, not because they needed it to win games, but to win over the fans, media, and customer base. Personally I think Ryan is a superior defensive mind, but as a HC is a loose cannon. While on one hand he needed to become the face of the franchise, on the other hand it won't be easy for him to continue to control that locker room long term with the current message. Especially if they run into adversity That sounds about right, but if I were a Jet fan, I would find it very troubling that the Pat's pass rush, that hasn't been good all year, could suddenly look like like the 2007 Giants against what was supposedly a strength of my team. Not that I'm complaining
good post and its painfully obvious this years team is at best a weakened version of last yr. the only bright spot has been Kyle Wilsons development.
I think that the front office, although it is preaching the win-now ethic, and our headlines are dominated by the success of this year, has been drafting for the future. Two years from now, Ellis and Wilkerson will prove to be impact players in the front seven, and Pouha will be phased out as Ellis, a far more physically promising NT, will take his place. I think that they recognized that a single draft can't push a team from good to elite - but that having a dominant physical presence in the interior of the 3-4 defense can lead to sustained dominance over the next 2-6 years. And Burress is a rental to tide them over until a draft full of WR talent; this team is not built to win now. Ducasse seems to have been a huge miss, but I don't fault the FO for its approach there, either. This FO is trying to prioritize long term physicality and talent at the O and D line, which is a solid approach to drafting. I'm sure they recognize that they need impact players in the linebacking core in order for this defense to flourish at the next level. I see this past off-season less as taking a step back than attempting to compete this year (and they were probably a little too arrogant, with the success in the postseason for the past two years) while also attempting to transition into a long-term dominant defense. This is an exciting team to watch, because, for all of its faults and weaknesses, we are seeing the development of young, long-term talent in critical areas: QB, D-line, and cornerback, while still being able to compete at a high level. Along with external upgrades at the WR and LB positions (and a second TE...) imminent in the offseason, this team should be even more fun to watch next year. But I can see them competing in the playoffs at a similar level to last year IF Ellis can inject some strength and energy into the NT position late this season, which will make our LBs look better. On the other hand, I don't trust Smith and Leonard to hold up in a division with Gronkowski and Hernandez, and I don't see any recognition that the safety position is in need of a serious upgrade as well, and I don't see where that upgrade could realistically come from next year.
You act like that's a revelation. The OL has had more bad games than good this year. Sunday night wasn't even their worst game of the season.
Poor game plan, and propensity to throw the ball OUT OF SHOTGUN in the red zone than to impose the will on defense have been what was plaguing Schottenheimer's offense for the past half decade. That is nothing new nor revealing. And I had to endure "Schottenheimer called GREAT game today!" bullshit times and again despite the pussy mindset of that OC. That is not revealing too much - don't get too high with the win last week. That proves nothing in the grand scheme of things. This Jets team is not going far in the post season, and neither are the Patriots. Drew Brees posted 60.8% and 57.6% in his 3 years at Chargers under Schottenheimer's watch, 2-year career below 60%. (He didn't play much in his 1st year.) It got to bad to the point where Chargers opted to draft Phillip Rivers later in 2004. I am not saying Sanchez is a QB of Brees's caliber - you may never know. One thing for sure is that Schottenheimer is hurting Sanchez more than anything. Like I said above, Schottenheimer is not helping out the QB. The telltale sign of that is, that Sanchez is playing tentative. Unlike Brady or Rodgers, who knows where the openings will be if he can survive the impending rusher or two, Sanchez doesn't seem to know where the receivers are supposed to be. That should go straight to the QB coach and OC. I never thought Matt Cavanaugh was a competent QB coach to start, so if you add the festering plague that is Schottenheimer to the mix, you get a genuinely fucked up QB situation. What's more puzzling is that, the run blocking was fine and dandy - and so the brilliant OC of the Jets decides to dial up the passing plays out of shotgun, not even play action. What more do I need to address to show the ineptitude of the moron that is Schottenheimer? That your defense could manhandle an offense designed by Schottenheimer proves at best nothing. This defense always freeloaded on the defense during the regular season, and to some extent the post season, so much so that when the defense couldn't bail them out, they couldn't do much to win the game either. Dustin Keller is a glorified WR in TE position - I have said this times and again. He is a complete mismatch with this team's identity. He fits better with passing offense like Manning-led Colts. What Jets need at TE is not a down field burner like Keller; the TE doesn't have to have a blazing speed, or the ability to go downfield like Hernandez/Gronkowski can. Jets need a TE that can block, and make tough catch in the traffic. If he got some speed, that's a bonus but not a necessity. Know what is facilitating his running game though. The threat of Brady passing is the best neutralizer against stacking up the box. That BJGE can produce on Patriots offense proves, again, nothing. McElroy went down due to injury. This one is squarely on Tannenbaum - that I agree. This WR corps cannot burn a 80 year old grandmother covering them even if their lives depended on it. I am hoping Braylon Edwards returns to New York next year. The entire problem with Jets defense stems from the fact that Jets cannot generate anything with half semblance of 'pressure' with 4 men rush. In case of Jets D, that would mean 3 down linemen and one pass rushing OLB. That spot hasn't been filled. And that Jets cannot bring the pressure right up the middle is hurting them big time. Both Pouha and DeVito are good rotational bodies, but they shouldn't be starting in this league, frankly speaking. Especially, if you want to contain Brady and his passing attack, generating fierce pass rush out of 4 men rush is of prime importance - current Jets D cannot do that. At this point I am beginning to wonder why Jets D isn't utilizing more of Bum Phillips version of 3-4 more; that will at least create more pass rushing lanes, and Pouha, DeVito and Wilkerson are all capable of handling double teams. Ever since Kerry Rhodes busted out, Jets never had a reliable FS on the squad, and that's showing. Consider this; if Pats Offense takes on Ravens, do you honestly think Ed Reed will have hard time covering Gronk? (And Ed Reed is not your 6'5 250lb FS either.) Jets have been trading their picks away, and that is showing. Tannenbaum should learn from this fuck up. I can't care less about Patriots situation unless it's Brady out for season with injury or (better yet) Brady retiring.
If Schottenheimer is retained, the offense will keep on stinking up to the high heavens. Bank on that. As for the defense, if they can get their hands on an elite pass rusher, that will be more than enough to cover their weaknesses. Not even that. In the first drive that resulted in 0 point, at the goal-to-go situation, fade toward sideline for Plax wasn't even an afterthought. The very throw that burned countless teams including the 18-0 Patriots during the SB nonetheless. Speaks volumes about the stupidity and ineptitude of the OC, I would have to tell you.
That's an underestimate of BJGE's value. He has been effective in late game situations where the Patriots just want to eat clock. Teams play do not generally overweight the pass defense in those situations.
Sanchez has been pretty good for a couple of games, and dog shit in those same games, and dog shit for entire games. When Brady went down in 2008, Matt Cassel came in(great team scenario too) 21 TDs, 3700 yards, 11 picks. Josh McDaniels stud Offensive Coordinator, yeah he sucks with the Rams right now, but that team has nothing besides Steven Jackson. 2009 goes to Kansas City, 16TD/INT 2900 yards. Matt Cassel threw 27 TDs last year, only 3100 yards, but 7 interceptions. He had Weis, a stud OC. Now without any OC, 10TDs/9INTS. My point is..Sanchez has hope, still young, and has done something in his career. I'm not ready to bag the kid, but if he sucks next year..its most likely over Johnny.... But they need a OLB pass rushing monstah, A Safety...maybe two.. Right Tackle is an absolute disastah..If Wayne Hunter isnt giving up a sack, he lets his guy go by him, and get in Mark's face in 2-3 seconds. A Tight End that can block. Uhh another WR... To find all of that during an offseason is impossible most likely, but they can get half of it done. The Jets need alot..
They can get it done in the draft and free agency. They may have to trade their mid first round pick to do it though.
You are far more optimistic than I am. I think we are right now, where we're going. 8-8, 9-7. Even if we get to 10, we're probably out of the playoffs, and just sliding down the draft board.
