Eh, I can see what your saying about Rodgers developing with the same guys around him. That's a valid point. But when you watch the two play, it's not even a comparison as far as talent goes. When Rodgers throws the ball it is basically the equivalent of a 35-40 yard handoff. The guy's accuracy and arm strength are unbelievable.
1. Tannenbaum's team has one chronic issue - that is the depth. I am not saying this team is set in terms of the starters - they are not. And the depth has been an issue all along. That criticism is valid. 2. What stunted Sanchez's growth as a QB, more than anything, is the instability at WR position. And Braylon cost 2 picks - so dropping the ball on Braylon has a. stunted Sanchez's growth and b. pissed away what was supposed to be a material for depth. That one is squarely on Tannenbaum now matter how you slice it. 3. Schottenheimer sucks goat balls.
The Packers have different requirements and training methods for their QB's than a lot of NFL teams. This is because they play in Green Bay in the winter and they need guys to really put the ball out there. There was no question from the day they drafted Rodgers that for him to be successful he was going to have to be able to deliver strikes downfield in bad weather, since the plan was to play home games in the playoffs in January. The Jets don't have that same organizational philosophy. They've had QB's with below average arm strength as recently as 2007 and planned to win with them. They do things differently. If Sanchez was in Green Bay he'd have been trained to deliver the ball downfield with force and accuracy and they wouldn't have let him start until he showed them he could do this consistently. Rodgers obviously has a strong arm but Sanchez scouting reports mention his arm strength as a positive also. There is one thing that's bothered me for the last few months as I've been watching Sanchez, and that is that I think the Jets have probably altered his throwing motion to try to make his release faster. This almost always causes a loss of accuracy and velocity and is widely seen as a potential problem area. Looking at the scouting reports on Sanchez in 2008 and 2009 most of them mention that he has a slower release than you'd like. I'm thinking that the Jets have tried to correct the release over the years and may have inadvertently messed with the power in his throws. He looked much stronger armed his rookie season than he does now.
You're obsessed with the scouting reports on players when they come out of college. Who gives a shit? Setup helps but ultimately it's about the scouting reports being wrong more so than it is about extraordinarily good QB's benefiting from their team's "setup".
The issue with Sanchez release seems to have been mentioned everywhere now that I'm going back and looking at the scouting reports. I only picked up on it a year later, because I don't look much at the scouting reports, when I heard a couple of scouts talking about Sam Bradford not having a fast release and they mentioned Sanchez as another example of a guy who would probably need to speed it up at the NFL level. This is also where the arm length vs release issue was raised.
In regard to the original post, interesting take. I do agree about Schottenheimer and certain members of his staff. There was a recent article written about Schottenheimer in which he states his whole offense is based on the philosophy of air Coryell. It really struck a nerve with me. For one, that kind of offense would require flawless talent across the board to have long term success as a top 10 unit s in the northeast Secondly, that style of offense is about creating mismatches and exploiting them with pre-snap movement and intermediate timing routes. . It's in all sense a VERY finesse offensive philosophy. How in the world does that coincide with what Rex wants in a "ground and pound" physical bunch that can still beat you over the top? It completely contradicts what Rex is preaching to the players to be. As for the comments about how Tannenbaum built the team, I think now we're seeing him building the long term future of this team through the draft. However, the original poster makee reference to the packers who do indeed build through the draft. But they have been able to do so because they have had a great core of impact players for so long, that they can afford to draft "best player available" and be patient with their player development.They also don't play in New york where there is always pressure from fans and the media to make a splash. When Tannenbaum took over, this team severely lacked the top end talent teams need to carry them in the standings on a year to year basis.What that caused was a domino effect of continually reaching on draft picks & expensive free agents to plug holes, and hope they develop into elite players. You can't win without a few difference makers. So what he decided to do was upgrade the top end talent through aggressive measures, establishing a young core and would build around them short term with low risk high reward veteran free agents while drafting with a "best player available" philosophy that eventually will create a very well rounded, talented roster. The plan has not been completed but I think he's on a good track. This team has alot of pro bowl level players still in their prime signed long term, and have began replacing aging positions with young promising talent. But that promising talent is gonna take some time...as is the overall depth of this roster. Tannenbaum likely needs 2 more drafts(and nothing to go wrong along the way) to get on the level of the packers you were alluding to earlier in terms of roster stability and depth.
Rodgiz is supayuman. Ya can puttim on da Seaharks and dey become da best offense in da league. Bing bink boom supabowl
Here's how I see what Tannenbaum actually did with the Jets. He had to fix the offensive line first, because it had collapsed in 2005. He had to manage the transition from a 4-3 to a 3-4, a process made difficult by the fact that the Jets defensive leader, Jonathan Vilma was not a good fit in a 3-4. He had to acquire some top end talent to compete with the Patriots top end talent at the time. He really had to make up some ground at CB because of a couple of mid to high picks that were busting out at the position in Derrick Strait and Justin Miller. So in order, he needed to: 1. Replenish the line and replace a Pro Bowl Center (Nick Mangold and D'Brickashaw Ferguson.) 2. Find good 3-4 personnel (David Harris, Kris Jenkins and Calvin Pace.) 3. Upgrade the talent to compete with the Pats (Thomas Jones, Brett Favre.) 4. Find a CB who would stick (Darrelle Revis.) All of this looks great on paper. The problem is that the top end talent that the Jets acquired other than Revis and Harris was aging and/or injury prone and like cotton candy on the tongue. It tasted great while it was there but then it was gone and it didn't take very long for that to happen. The drafted talent was much more solid, but the Jets paid very heavily in picks to make that happen, repeatedly trading up to get a cornerstone. Then two things happened that really knocked the wind out of the Jets sails. The first was that Kerry Rhodes, who looked like a very good player in 2006, turned out to be a flash in the pan, who played progressively worse until he was almost invisible in Ryan's system in 2009. In truth he was an average player, not a bad one, by that time but that was a huge loss of value for the Jets because a potentially great safety turned out to be just an average player. The second was that the Brett Favre experiment collapsed at the end of 2008 and the Jets QB position was suddenly really vacant for the first time since 1995. So in 2009 Tannenbaum again did the thing that he had tried to do for the preceding 3 seasons. He bundled value to move up in the draft and take a QB that most people thought was a good grab at the spot. This move had all of his hallmarks tied up in one, it was a trade-up for a player at a position of need who had all the makings of a superior talent to compete with the Pats. The problem though was that the move up was accompanied by a lot of other things going wrong at the same time. Kris Jenkins turned out to be too injury prone to center the defense around. Kerry Rhodes turned into just another safety. Alan Faneca and Thomas Jones were both getting near the end. The Jets window to actually win was narrowing rapidly and now they had a rookie QB and nobody else to play for them. So for the next two seasons the Jets did everything they could to promote a fast win and came up just short. That's where we are now. The odds are that we've seen the best already of that window and that we're going to be in a phased rebuilding over the next few seasons. Never admitting that we're rebuilding but rapidly trying to fill holes on the offensive line, the WR corps, the linebackers and in the defensive backfield. We spent a hell of a lot of value to build that 2008-2010 run and we're going to have to pay the piper now. Hopefully we won't be looking for a QB also because in that case we're in full rebuild mode.
I don't disagree with your facts about how Tanny drafts, but I dont think that his style has hurt us in the long run
His style has really hurt the Jets moving forward. We have a hole at RT and maybe at LG also. We have emerging problems at linebacker. We have a problem at safety. We're dependent on a 35 year old WR (Plax next season) not to have to fill there also. The runningbacks are nothing special at this point unless McKnight turns out to be good enough to get some carries there. Even then they're nothing special, just not a hole. That's a lot of things to have to fix at once. If they think we need to do something about Sanchez it's an extraordinary amount of things to have to fix. This all assuming that the Jets amazing injury luck continues.
You're right. I've never been a huge fan of the sheer number of trade-ups and traded picks. A lot of them have been for players who have done pretty well, but it has crippled our depth. We have very few young players who are ready to step up in big ways, and as a result, we can't suffer any injuries, or we're screwed. If Sanchez, Holmes, Keller, Mangold, Ferguson, or Revis were hurt, we're completely screwed, and Greene, Burress, Moore, and Pouha fall into a close category. We simply don't have young talent at many positions across the board. Hopefully, Tanny mining through the waiver wire and UDFA pools will help us get some young talent that didn't fit elsewhere. Maybin has worked out well for a waiver wire pickup. And there are guys - Cumberland, Powell, McKnight, Baker, Nelson, Riley, Turner, Ducasse, Ellis, Mauga, Cook - that are young and haven't gotten extended looks. Who knows, one of them could be a diamond in the rough. We have no idea. But it's much harder to find those types of guys because if they really were that good, chances are they would have stuck with their old team. QB: Hopefully set with Sanchez, could maybe use a backup. RB: Hopefully set with Greene, need a complimentary back but have drafted 2 guys, so who knows WR: Holmes and question marks going forward. Burress is old, Kerley looks good, but how good? The rest are all question marks. TE: Sorely need a #2 TE, especially for ground and pound. Maybe even a better #1 TE. OL: Need a RT, might need an LG, and might even need an RG sooner than we think. DL: Could always use another playmaker. Pouha is getting older, though he does have less mileage. Hopefully, Ellis is the answer. LB: Sorely need a pass rushing OLB, maybe another OLB, too, and more speed. Scott is getting older, too, with no heir apparent on the roster DB: Sorely need a safety who can make plays and cover tight ends, particularly against New England. Possibly 2 safeties. Cornerback is the only spot on the team where we're set with youth and talent, along with Brick, Mangold, and Harris. QB, RB, and DL are hopefully set. Everywhere else, we could use some youth.
It seems the front office is attempting to mimic the belichick method of the early to mid 2000's. That is, plugging young guys in and getting rid of certain players when they become too old or too much of a liability contract wise. There was always a good amount of turnover on those teams but they'd always find a cheap vet or young player to fill in. You had guys like Corey Dillon etc. a lot of people came to that team to win, just like people have come to us in the last two years. unfortunately, that doesn't really work the same when you have a young quarterback and continuity is extremely important. For brady, you could plug anyone into that system and he'd make them look great. Sanchez isn't that guy. He needs to work with the same people and get on teh same page. The packers have virtually the same offensive unit they've had minus the upgrades in teh offensive line. In terms of the receiving core and TE, it's been the same guys for 3 years +. That is huge. They've made moves but mostly on the defensive side of the ball. I really think the front office underestimated the importance of continuity for a young QB, and thought they could adapt. I'm sure they were aware but it really does make a difference
every team has holes. Every single team. it's about prioritizing where you can *have* holes. You're never going to be elite at every position because of the salary cap and the way the NFL is structured. most teams will go heavy on what they feel can either mask the deficiencies or make the lesser players play better in effect (i.e. having a really good pass rush helps a weak secondary). So, essentially, a good draft and a few free agent signings can fix most of those problems. We have a lot of money tied up in the linebacker position right now. I'm willing to bet BT and Pace are gone, and Bart will restructure his contract. I'm not sure who's a free agent off hand....but i'm willing to bet our first few picks are a combination of a safety an outside linebacker an offensive lineman (RT/RG)..brandon moore is starting to get old. Slauson will be fine. we can't have everyone on the line an all pro. but he's serviceable. the problem is you can't have two guys like slauson and hunter on the line because they're not elite talents. D'brick, mangold and moore to an extent can mask 1 guy's mediocre to bad play but when you have two guys that are mediocre to above average at best it becomes a problem Our linebackers are overpaid right now. They weren't the last two years despite having big contracts because they were younger and healthier, but now everyone is 31+ except Harris. That's something that will eb addressed and will help the defense significantly. I wouldn't be surprised if we grab a safety in the first round. If we address those two areas, we'll have one of the best defenses in the league from a talent perspective. The linebacker issue shouldn't be as difficult because of the amount of cap space we'd free up by cutting ties with BT and Pace(or making them take a HUGE paycut)
Agree on the needs, but at the end of the day this is more than fixable IF, and a big IF, Sanchez and Greene turn out elite on the important positions for us. (Ducasse developing would be a god sent but not a disaster if not, bad picks happen.)
A couple of quick points. You can't just plug any good WR in with any QB, including Tom Brady, and guarantee success. Look at Ocho Cinco's trouble this year as a prime example of how talent alone is not a substitute for actually getting reps with the guy who's throwing you the ball. Most of the time you're on solid ground with a veteran QB and a veteran WR but sometimes the fit just isn't there right away because completing a pass *is* a two-way communication, not just some guy throwing the ball and another guy catching it. As people have pointed out elsewhere the ball is thrown most of the time before the WR comes out of his break. Knowing where he is going if that break is not there is key. Secondly, and this is really important to understand if you want to know where the Jets are right now and where they are likely headed in the next couple of seasons. The Jets have been VERY lucky with injuries over the last few seasons. Kris Jenkins is about the only major injury of consequence from 2008-2011. We have not had multiple starters out with injuries at the same time at any point along the way of the Rex Ryan run. What this means is that the primary flaw in Tannenbaum's building strategy has gone untested. The Jets have not had to rely on depth in season because people haven't gone out on them and forced them to fill a key spot suddenly. We got a little whiff of what that might look like when Mangold went out for a few games early this season. If the Jets got a couple of key injuries at the wrong positions now we're suddenly looking at a 4-12 squad. If David Harris and Dustin Keller for instance were to go for the season in camp next year we're probably going to have a terrible year. If Mangold went down again right now we'd probably win 1 or 2 more games tops this season.
I like tannanbaums aproach of if they see a player they want their not afraid to trade up and get them. Almost everyone they traded up for has worked out, however it kills our depth. Our backup lineman on both sides of the ball shouldn't be in the nfl and we missed big on ducasse, something that can't happen when you trade away picks. We spend all of free agency targeting cb, a position we are already deep in and completley ignore our pathetic free safety and depth in the trenches. Imagine we picked up landry and a rt? smith and Hunter would be backups where they belong. big jenk said it best about tanny he's great with the cap but not the best talent evaluator
Good points. I don't think talent evaluation is Tannenbaum's problem. The Jets have generally picked up pretty good players with the trade-ups. I think the problem with his approach is talent accumulation. The Jets just don't have enough overall talent on the roster at this point to be a topflight team. They've been relatively lucky on the injury front so far, so the lack of talent accumulation hasn't been a critical factor yet, just a nagging one.
