Players have come out and have publicly criticized schotty and how predictable and ineffective his play calls are. There's no doubt in my mind that there are serious cracks in the offense and these cracks will soon or already have created a lot of tension that can quickly turn the locker room into shit.
What I want to emphasize is that, to succeed with Schottenheimer's offensive system, you'd need a QB with Pennington's brain and accuracy, and Favre's arm strength, and Manning/Brady/Montana's field vision and Vick's foot speed. A QB like that MIGHT exist in this world. I don't know. My bet is a QB with such credential will not emerge till thy kingdom come. *And then, even with that kind of monster QB, Schottenheimer will still find a way to fuck up in such a distraught manner that nobody wants to talk about.* Again, let me clarify this to you: JETS DO NOT RUN WEST COAST OFFENSE. In fact, it appalls me to see 'receiving threat' out of 'backfield' - that's not a staple of Sid Gillman offense. That short/mid range target is supposed to belong to the TE, after WRs clear out the field. But then, Schottenheimer NEVER designs anything that utilizes classic schemes like Clear out - I almost puked when I saw Kerley received the ball short then was tackled immediately by two Pats today, while #25 was watching how the play was developing from the split end (Plax should have been in that split end position, and Plax should have run deep post or go route, to clear out the area for Kerley. Instead, the split end ran short out route, I think? Short out and short dig in route. What a fucking brilliant combination of routes, with two virtual non-threats that don't even get respect from the defense. Defend that, SDF.) Rich Gannon will have to teach Schottenheimer how to call the offensive plays from 'the middle of the field' to 'the sideline' first and foremost. If Jets wanted to install WCO, they could with Pennington still calling the shot. Schottenheimer miserably failed there once. Then came Favre, who spent his entire career in WCO. Still failed. Schottenheimer really sucks at WCO. I have also shown you other 3 Jets QBs (Pennington, Favre, Clemens) didn't have any sort of chemistry with Schottenheimer whatsoever. Occam's razor tells me that it's highly unlikely that such diverse spectrum of QBs have no business in NFL. Instead, it's more than likely that the system they were in is a pure horse shit. Cerebral QB with ungodly accuracy couldn't make it work because he had no arm. *he then went on to post 7.7 yard per attempt the very next season.* Gun slinger with rocket arm couldn't make it work because he had no brains. (Really?) I am of opinion that Tom Brady will fail in this system. Jets 'developed' Schottenheimer for the past 6 years, and the result is that he is a miserable failure. Time to move on.
Looks like SDF is quiet for now. If Jets somehow win next week, SDF will be in full swing, no doubt. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Was it eight? or seven? Looked like Jets had three scoring drive, then everything else was 3-and-out. Hell, I saw that reverse fake that didn't fool anyone twice on my own count. Of course that has to fall on the shoulder of the players again, I guess? Because they didn't execute like Brian has conjured them up to be, right? How about the short 3rd down pass? Ah, just who the fuck is #25 on Jets roster now anyway? Wasn't that Sherry? (Oh, that was McKnight.) I am saying this because, McKnight ran short out route, and Kerley from inside ran short dig in. two DBs were sitting in the middle, watching Sanchez then once Sanchez threw the pass, both of them jumped on Kerley. So... is THAT an execution problem too? Maybe Sanchez didn't read the coverage properly? Or what else could they have done better? Are you sure that's execution problem, and not a fucking shitty design?
1% chance only if players mutiny. There are some really shitty short yardage plays we're running. And god forbid we take any chances to get chunks of yardage at one time. We struggle to get 1st downs as it is, might as well try to get a bigger play once in a while. Offensive coordinators always get too much blame. Everyone always hates the OC. But Schottenheimer IMO has to go after this season. This offense is miserable to watch, and it's never been particularly good with him. However, Zach, saying Brady would fail in this system is ridiculous, unless you mean if he grew up in this system like Sanchez. A QB as good as Brady would make any system look good. But if you want to say he wouldn't have developed as well, I'll buy that for sure. Brady would identify the mismatch on the field and exploit it, and Schottenheimer would probably call a different type of game. He can recognize coverages and see who will be open where, most of the time, and if not, he'll stand in the pocket and find someone else. Sanchez has poor field vision and poise in the pocket, and he locks on WRs too much. As a result, he misses open receivers (usually Holmes, since our other WRs are too slow to gain much separation). That all being said, I would love to see a new offensive coordinator. I am so sick and tired of this offense.
yeah. 100% i've said it more than a few times on this board but pretty much every fanbase always blames the OC for any problems on that side of the ball, regardless of cause. A lot of the time it's just asinine but in the case of schotty, it really is justified. We're not talking about a guy who's barely had a chance to work with players and the staff. we're talking about a guy who's performed mediocre at best for almost 6 years. 6 years......... in a day and age where coaches and coordinators get fired left and right, how has someone who's body of work is so underwhelming managed to keep his job this long? I know the answer to that, but it really is just ridiculous when you think about it
Big if considering how Rex is handling the team. Mason got three snaps today by my count and I'm guessing it had a lot to do with his comments last week. If the players try and mutiny then we'll see people getting the same treatment. Mason's mouth put his job as #3 WR in jeopardy and Kerley made a great case for taking over that position today. I doubt we'll see Mason get cut like Cimini was saying but if someone tries to pull that shit again then they're going to be looking at other people playing their position.
Well, I think this is a valid question. Schottenheimer is probably still around largely because of his last name, and largely because Rex assumes he's good because he sounds intelligent, people say he's smart, his last name, and that he's extremely loyal to his guys, which Schottenheimer basically is at this point. Not to mention, if Rex thought the playcalling was that bad, he easily could have stripped Schottenheimer of his duties or infused his own ideas for what he wants. Or, and this is scary to even think about, maybe Rex is fine with this offense and these are his ideas manifesting on the field. I doubt that's true, but either way, Rex is the head coach. Just like Herm got some blame with Hackett, Rex needs some with Schotty.
My problem with the offense is that it takes no chances down the field at all. I know this is very hard to do this year because the pass protection has been weak but it's really annoying to watch all of the action take place within 15-20 yards of the line of scrimmage. Last year and in 2009 the Jets rarely took shots down the field either. Schotty's idea of a "keep them honest" play is something that reverses the flow of play behind the line of scrimmage. I know that people don't think there's any WCO in this offense but the heavy emphasis on keeping the defense off balance horizontally while basically ignoring the vertical game just screams WCO. Even if its not a classic WCO the fact that the Jets are only really attacking the defense out to 15-20 yards and are devoting a lot of effort to stretching the field horizontally puts it in the category. Here's the thing I don't understand at all though, why does the offense change so much from year to year in terms of the staple plays? 2006 and 2007 saw a ton of quickouts and screens to the receivers. This was with Chad and Clemens throwing the ball. 2008 we kept the quickouts only it was Favre connecting with Coles and Cotchery. 2009 we kept the quickouts for like 4 games, mainly to Stuckey and Cotchery. then Cotchery got hurt and Edwards came on board and boom the quickouts and receiver screens are never seen again. 2010 almost no quickouts at all and very few screens although the play to Cotchery, against the Pats which was just a couple yards up the field when he caught it was key. This year no quickouts only a couple of screens and then out of nowhere Schotty calls the play that the Ravens turned into a pick-6. 2006 and 2007 a lot of semi-reverse traps in which one back goes into the line and then another back, usually Leon Washington, gets the ball and takes it around the other end. Not a particularly successful play but Washington got a first down off of it here and there. 2008 the semi-reverse traps go away and get replaced by a bunch of up the gut stuff to complement Brett Favre's rifle shots over the middle. 2009 the wildcat shows up with Brad Smith taking direct snaps and the occasional reverse, usually to Cotchery. The running game is a mix of Jones and Greene up the middle and Greene around the end, usually to the wide side of the field and almost always to the left. 2010 still wildcat, still reverses. Tomlinson and Greene split carries mainly offtackle with some runs up the gut to try to keep the linebackers honest. 2011 a couple of wildcat snaps to Tomlinson but basically it's dying out (thank god), Greene is running right up the gut for the first two games for small gains and Tomlinson off tackle. Then they decide to run Greene outside for a couple of games and he makes a few gains. Now back inside with him and he makes a few gains. I swear I can't pick out any over-riding pattern for the Jets offense over the last 5 years other than it's been mediocre and short to medium range except when Favre told Schotty what offense the Jets were running for the first 11 games of 2008. I mean I guess having the defense off guard and guessing all the time is valuable but is that the only thing the Jet's offense does well lately?
This is Hobbes's battle cry. Also remember how Favre operated with the personnel, and observe how Peyton/Tom operates. Sanchez does NOT have a poor field vision in the pocket. The problem lies in a few steps: 1. Sanchez is usually throwing from right under the center, having to take good 5 steps from the start of the play. In case of last week's game, he even threw straight from I formation, and it didn't even involve any form of play-action fake to neutralize the pass rush. I formation? Are you kidding me? Only 3 downfield threat? No wonder he threw picks there. 2. If Sanchez is allowed to survey the field from the shotgun, the routes are usually exceptionally crappy. I don't know if you noticed this, but Schottenheimer has extremely bad habit of lining up his big threat guys in ONE CLUSTER. Thus defenses always have to concentrate on one part of the field (usually left sideline, or if Keller is in play, the right side. ONLY THESE TWO VARIANTS.) to completely neutralize the receiving threats. I don't know why Schottenheimer keeps doing this horse shit. I really can't even comprehend why he's doing that either. If I were designing plays, I'd deploy Santonio on the left, and Plax on the right, then go from there. 3. What I meant was given in this light; if Brady had to play in this system, he will most likely fail. Not because he is a bad QB; what I am implying is that, Sanchez looks a lot worse than his actual talent because the system sucks so bad. I think I mentioned this in other thread; Sanchez at USC looks like a different QB. He was decisive, confident and always delivered the ball with sheer authority. These days? He is a totally different man - insecure, shaky, confused and most of all, tentative. Other than that select few drives where he gets going, he looks really terrible. Even in those 'good' drives, he rarely hits his receivers in their stride - which he could do so well in college days. I am assuming this is on Schottenheimer, not Sanchez, more or so because no QB under Schottenheimer's guidance could hit his receivers in their stride. And last, but not the least, if Brady had to take the snap from under the center, then take 5 step back, then survey the field and throw toward that paltry of receiving options he has, he will most likely fail. Not because he is a bad QB. If you cannot establish consistent rushing threat, I formation fails really well. (That is the criticism against Sid Gillman offense - if you are playing from behind, then you don't get enough receiving target up field.) 4. About locking on the receiver: if Sanchez wasn't getting knocked around like he has been the past few weeks, he would be doing that much less. Brady, in his heyday, would say his favorite receiver is an open receiver; but what that really means is that, if he can get the protection he needs, then he can in turn make the play for the offense as well. Is Sanchez getting the necessary protection? I don't think anybody can say Yes to this one. If the OL is not protecting the QB like they should, the adjustment should come in form of 1. Max Pro 2. Screen passes 3. Misdirection runs. Out of the three options, Schottenheimer utilizes #3 exclusively, in form of that cursed end-around reverse (that defense actually loves.) If this doesn't fall on the OC, whose fault is this mess? 5. Back to is Brady going to fail in this system? question. I said "observe" how they (Brady/Manning/Favre) conduct their offense because they usually are good 7 yards behind the LoS, and that affords them at least good 2 seconds before they have to start doing something, unlike if they are taking snaps directly under the center then take 5 or 7 steps behind. (This is Sanchez situation.) I can understand why Hobbes has been crying out loud for shotguns and whatnot, as that obviously allows Sanchez to view the field better, and see the coverage better. My assertion starts from this point - if you stick Brady to take the snap directly from under the center, with inept rushing attack and paltry receiving targets, once Brady is stripped of the two things that is so necessary to a QB (vision/time) he will fail just as well. Again, not because he is a bad QB. Hell, Joe Montana will fail in this one. (Yeah. I one-upped that one there. haha)
I was going to post a question about how many times the Jets have thrown down field this season. It can't be more than 10. And by down field I mean +20 yards. Sanchez thrives on those throws, he's not a WCO QB. He's a vertical passer. He looked the most comfortable firing 25 yard passes late in the game, because his delivery is maximized when throwing that far down the field. I know the OL made it impossible this year, but I don't get how this offense is scared to swing for the fences when its worked when called. I don't understand the change over the past 2 years. I'm done with this offensive scheme. It doesn't maximize anything. A Mangini coach doing the same square peg, round hole routine. Get Rex's guy in here.
The Bashing is officially not brainless. There is so much evidence that Schotty can't do his job correctly. Its time for him to go.
I do think Schotty will be fired if the Jets are out of the playoff picture around week 14, and the Jets will find their new guy either on the staff, or they'll look somewhere else. I'd like a guy Rex knows and loves, not someone that was referred to him by the FO. His last name has gotten him far enough, its time for someone else.
Br4d// That is exactly why I am saying this offense is a disaster waiting to happen. *and disaster that happened. A LOT.* I think I clarified that portion earlier in this thread somewhere. Some element of offensive schemes work really well with other elements while destroys itself if implemented with some other elements. In Schottenheimer's case, maybe he is trying to implement WCO on Sid Gillman Offense. I don't know. What I can tell you is that, short, horizontal passing game and Ground and Pound philosophy does not work under any circumstances. It is not even like Schottenheimer is utilizing all the good short routes that make WCO so effective; I can list at least 5 different routes that works well with WCO: Quick slant/quick out/quick curl/zig out/jerk routes are these. From these, quick out/quick curls, we see on yearly basis (he features them on annual basis not as a whole package.) Slant, we see somewhat more often. Zig out and Jerk routes, I have NEVER seen under Schottenheimer's tutelage. What kind of bullshit WCO is that? I have no freaking clue.
That was my biggest issue with the game. We didn't take any shots down field. We really haven't done that all season. Against Oakland and Baltimore, with Baxter at center, it made some sense as Sanchez was getting killed. But he had pretty decent pass protection for most of the game, there's no reason not to take any shots. This offense struggles to string together first downs. Why not take some chances? We actually took a few chances when Braylon was here. Plaxico is worse at getting off the line of scrimmage, he's not very fast, and he runs poor routes. But he's still 6'5 and can jump, it would be nice for him to make some plays. Zach, the Favre thing is a good point, but it was a brand new offense, and he still had 20 TDs and 13 Int in the first 11 games before getting hurt. He was on pace to throw for 29 TDs with worse weapons than what Sanchez has now. Coles was out of the NFL a year later after being awful with Cincinnati, and he dropped a ton of passes that year. I am with you that Schotty has to go though. The cluster formations kill me. And then they run the same route so they're standing right next to each other with their defenders right there. What good is that supposed to do? Look at what the Raiders do. They're not necessarily the model for how to run your offense, but they have a dominant running game and mix it with a downfield passing game to keep opponents honest. There is no reason in the world for defenses not to just stack the box to stop the run and short passes. We never go down the field. And if we do, our line might not hold up.
A couple of things I want to note... It's pretty obvious at this point, that it's not "just fans" seeing this stuff. Even the analysts tonight were like... These play calls and routes are not working... They noted the play calling called for routes that were a yard or two yards short of first downs. I know it's on the WR or TE to get the first down, be aware of the marker, but if the route is less than the number of yards needed, and the defenders are aware of what we're doing, and there to make the stop... Can someone explain to me why we call those plays, and I'm not being facetious. Keller did it this game. I think I recall a play in the Jags game where the route on the play call Holmes was running was a yard or two short.... I don't get why we call that. I mean, really, why? They noted that the play calls had formations where WRs were "on top" of each other making it difficult for the QB and the WR alike. They said, not only does it cause all of the defenders to cover the same area, it causes issues for the WRs. They noted in one instance that Plax ran in to Tone, disrupting Tone's route. They talked about us having clusters of WRs all essentially on top of each other, when their routes finished... What is that? That can't make it easy for Mark to make his reads, can it? I just feel like we use high difficulty formations that make it so tough to execute well and consistently. And I do blame that on the OC. I don't deny there were some execution errors, there were... But... Still... Some of the other stuff... No, just no. I have yet to see us play a game this season, where the clustering of our WRs the way that we are, has not caused errors at some point in the game. Last week, I can still note Mason and Plax were on top of each other during one play, and subsequently couldn't catch the ball, because neither knew who it was going to, I mean...
