I haven't been doing much schotty defending this year because he hasn't really deserved it. In years past I thought he was being used as a convenient scapegoat for frustrations with many different facets of the offense. This year he has had Sanchez developing for 3 years and I expected the offense to finally come into it's own. It hasn't and I don't know that it will. That being said to zach's point about Pennington I think you are revising history a bit to make a point. Remember 06 when everyone was in love with Mangini and schotty? That year he took an offense severely lacking in talent and CP off surgery #2 and made lots of positive things happen. Pennington was a cerebral QB who was able to use all the things that people now hate about the offense to his advantage. I know the 06 offensive numbers look mediocre in retrospect but coming off the terrible 05 season what the offense did in 06 was considered a minor miracle around here. 07 gave us a severely injured Chad in week one. Kellen Clemens being Kellen Clemens and then a chad that still wasn't right when he came back. Just seems that using penningtons 08 season as an indictment on the scheme requires looking at the past in a creative way.
I am not revising the past one bit. Even in the best season under Schottenheimer's guidance, Pennington never posted anything like 19-7 TD/INT ratio that he did in his very first season at Miami nor did he ever break 7 yards/attempt barrier, which he also broke in his first season at Miami. (Or, to be exact, Pennington never posted below 7 yards per attempt except when he was under Schottenheimer's guidance.) How can that be 'revising history' by any stretch? Is pointing out obvious discrepancy what you call 'revising history'? Care to elaborate on that one? If at all, I do remember Chad trying to force one outside hashmark, which resulted in Aaron Ross's first ever INT, which was also pick-6 - and also, Ross basically knowing what the offense is doing. We all know that is not Pennington's strength, so are you then suggesting Pennington chose to self-destruct in those occasions? Wasn't he supposed to be smart, cerebral QB? Or am I revising the history again?
I already did. The numbers from 06 don't look great sitting here in 2011 but at the time people were amazed that he managed to get what he did from CP and the rest of the O. Pennington had an amazing 08 no denying it and without looking probably his best as a pro. His best year with schotty was his only year with schotty that wasn't destroyed by injury before it ever started. I think you need to completely forget what was expected of the jets offense in 06 and what they actually did to say that Pennington struggled in schotty's system. In the one year he had with it the offense outperformed expectations greatly.
I'm not just using that 'exceptional' outlier data to make my point. Throughout the injury-plagued career *in seasons that he played more than 5 games* Pennington never threw for less than 7 yards per attempt except when he was under Schottenheimer. His career TD/INT ratio is 102/64, but under Schottenheimer, it's pedestrian 29/28. He had three coordinators throughout his career; Hackett, Schottenheimer, Henning. Out of all 3, only Schottenheimer failed to let Pennington throw for more than 7 yards per attempt. But that doesn't fall on Schottenheimer's shoulder, right? Because no matter what little Henning had, that's always boatload more than Schottenheimer had, right? Ok. To say Pennington 'struggled' in his first year with Schottenheimer might be an overstatement - that much I can agree. Even during that miracle season, Pennington threw astonishing 16 picks. He never threw that much picks in his career ever. On top of that, the miracle season marked Pennington's first season where he threw picks in the end zone - he never did that before. Of course, I don't deny not much was expected out of that Jets squad. However, that doesn't mean his pedestrian numbers can be looked at as if it wasn't. Hell, Bills last year had Fitzpatrick performing 23/15 QB performance - his rating was modest 81.5, so does that mean Fitzy had a miracle season? ================================================================================= For the last time, let me state this - just to clarify. That Schottenheimer never had stability at QB position is NOT an excuse for him, as countless OCs have worked with QBs with less time yet produced more than Schottenheimer did, meaning the time QB spends with an OC is not necessarily a good indicator of how good the QB will be. In case of Schottenheimer, he dealt with every kinds of QB - from cerebral QB in Pennington to reckless gamble in Favre to prospects in Clemens and Sanchez. The only thing he could do with these QB crops is mediocre at best - when Henning could do much more with Pennington, with what little he had at disposal, nonetheless.
We have a long way to go before the season is over. But if we do collapse this year due to our offense I don't see schotty staying on next year.
In 2002 Penny tossed 22TDs against 6 Pics, for a 104.5 rating. This whole discussion is about not understanding that the modern passing game has evolved (AND QUITE SOME TIME AGO) from Down the field outside the numbers. Schotty simply does not believe in spreading other teams out and getting 5 yards a clip in the air. I hate to flog that dead horse, but it's the Parcells/Vinny analogy.
Very well. Now that you mentioned it, I'll flog that dead horse a bit more. If there was ever a QB that fit WCO in Jets history, that's Pennington. Below average arm, that's given - but he was cerebral, and was dead accurate on nearly every throw. Obviously Hackett must have seen something there (if you didn't know, he also coached Joe Montana as well.) Now, watch what Schottenheimer forces Pennington to do. Know that Schottenheimer is NOT a WCO disciple, and doesn't really understand how that thing works. Did you ever see Jets offense set picks to free up other receiver, like Patriots does these days? That was, believe it or not, one of the staple points of Bill Walsh's WCO - that we just do not see these with Schottenheimer. True, Schottenheimer is trying the timing route and all that, but without proper protection on the receiver (either through scheme or by setting picks at necessary timing) it won't work. In that regard, Schottenheimer's short passing theory is like a car with only one side of the wheels. Guess why Jets receivers rarely get yards after catch. Routes do not reflect the strength of the receivers, first and foremost and then the receivers do not get any protection in form of schemes or picks. Of course, not all the blame falls on Schottenheimer if you do look at it; maybe Jets had Barry Sanders type of running threat behind, with Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, John Taylor and Brent Jones running the routes, maybe his putrid scheme will succeed. So if that's the reason why Schottenheimer's plans do not work, then the blame goes straight up to Tannenbaum, as he consistently failed to recognize talents that could make Schottenheimer's offensive plans work and get them. The players? You can't ask them to do more than what they can do, or am I mistaken here?
The other thing about the WCO is it penalizes QB's who have accuracy issues since it relies so heavily on hitting the receiver in stride so he can make yards after the catch. Just completing a pass isn't enough because the WCO relies on yards after the catch for both first downs and it's big gainers. Sanchez is probably not suited to play in a WCO at this point in his career. He's suited to play in a more vertical offense where he can buy some time with his feet for somebody to get open down field. If you're going to be a sub-60% passer at this point the completions need to be for more yards to make up the difference. That's the Eli Manning rule. Sanchez is on an Eli Manning progression at this point also.
With all of this talk about shit canning Schotty and what type of offense suits Mark. What if the Jets hired someone from the Packers O, Rodgers and Mark are a lot alike. Neither team can run the ball for shit, similar weapons at TE/WR. Thats the team I would target and take there QB coach or another O coach.
My Argument all along. Short crisp routes seeking mismatches, and delivering the ball quickly, HIDES a weak OL.
And my (another) argument all along has been that Sanchez is not a good fit for that kind of offense. Sanchez fits better with conventional offense with strong ground game.
This is a gross overstatement, in my opinion. Of course Sanchez struggled with his completion ratio, as stats say. However, what you must consider is, how much of the blame goes to Sanchez in that situation. I am mentioning this because, too many times I have seen Sanchez forcing the ball into tight window, ending up with broken passes. That's the same problem Pennington had with Schottenheimer - either he had to check down with safety receiver somewhere or was forced to throw into the tight window. For that reason, I don't think the completion ratio by itself shows the whole picture. ------------------------------------------------------- When I said maybe Sanchez is not such a good fit with WCO, I said that because his horizontal passes looked ridiculously bad - that is, even during his college games, these swing passes and passes in the flat looked hideously bad - not because they were inaccurate. He seems to lack the 'touch' that Pennington had so naturally. It is not hard to recognize that horizontal game is not his forte. Vertical game is. (His highlights are filled with him firing downfield with extreme success.)
If you can't throw into a tight window because you lack accuracy like Sanchez or you don't have velocity like Pennington, you aren't going to be a great NFL qb.
As Terry Bradshaw and Jim Plunkett so famously proved. Richard Todd was there also but he was destroyed by a succession of really bad Jet teams that exposed his flaws instead of promoting his strengths.
Joe Montana laughs at you. P.S. If you are forcing into tight window of multiple defenders, you are not likely successful. Favre wasn't in Schottenheimer's system if that proves anything to you. As for Bradshaw example: he also famously said that if the receiver is matched one-on-one, then you as the QB must trust the receiver and heave up the ball. Does that qualify in any of Schottenheimer's situations? I seriously doubt that.
Ah yes, I forgot 2002. That was a fun year all around. To bad pennington didn't become the franchise QB and Paul Hackett was a shit coordinator thereafter. A far as this Pennington argument , I have acknowledged the numbers are not on my side. I am basing my argument on how the offense was looked at as it was happening. Coming off 05 and the second shoulder surgery what the offense managed to do was very successful in the eyes of most everyone. The numbers weren't great at the time but based on the talent available the tone surrounding the offense was very, very positive, I'm still done defending this offense this year. I thought it would be fair to see how the offense looked when Sanchez had developed and think he is good enough to lead a better offense than this. This year is on schotty. I dont know if it will get better but I sure fucking hope it does.
