Umm... please point out all of those catches that A.J. Green made against Bailey to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya9JuEMoNjM From what I saw, approximately 7 were against some CB named Goodman #21, and about 3 were against another CB named Vaughn #41. Interesting, where was Bailey? Oh, he was inactive for that game: http://www.cincyjungle.com/2011/9/1...ive-list-champ-bailey-and-robert-geathers-are Solid argument though.
Boom! Headshot. ...shows how much I care about a Bengals/Broncos game. Andre Goodman should have no problem covering a rookie wideout. My original point was that young players can make an impact in this league though.
First, junc admits he was wrong. Second, Electric gets owned by a rival Pats fan. All in the same week. We're gonna win the super bowl this year, fellas.
Video of Moore last week. The Penalties start at 1:34. Ends up only 2 of the Cro PI's were vs Moore according to this guy: [YOUTUBE]qKp4HpaSdc0[/YOUTUBE] About Denarius Moore: Moore slipped to the fifth-round coming out of Tennessee, leading ESPN NFL analyst Ross Tucker to call for an investigation into the matter. As soon as training camp opened, Moore immediately began catching the eye of the coaching staff, teammates, and beat writers. Moore continued to make the spectacular catch look routine, leading coach Hue Jackson to exclaim, "Mama, there goes that man again.” The phrase became a familiar refrain among beat writers, tweeted throughout training camp practices. By mid-August, Steve Corkran of the Contra Costa Times called Moore not only the best receiver on the team but often the best player, period. “It has reached the point,” said Corkran, “where this isn’t some one-week wonder, flash in the pan or fluke. The man can flat out play.” In any other NFL city Moore would have been in the starting lineup by the first preseason game. Under stubborn owner Al Davis, though, Darrius Heyward-Bey continued to coast by on scholarship. That’s about to change. Asked if Moore’s impressive showing would lead to more playing time going forward, coach Hue Jackson responded, "Oh boy, you better believe [it]. There’s no doubt. You can’t deny that one. What the guy’s doing … he’s done it in training camp, he’s done it in practice, he’s done it in preseason games and he’s done it in regular season games. He is as advertised. It’s going to be hard to keep that young man off the field.”
Yeah, I said that in my second sentence. The officials were terrible, but they seemed to have been waiting for Cro's grabby style of coverage because they were quick enough to call the blatant harness grab that he displayed against Dez Bryant in that 'jump ball' on 9/11. I don't doubt that Hue Jackson told the refs before the game to watch him for that stuff. I've seen it said many times that Cromartie is a 'potentially elite cornerback'. Potential is fart wind until it's realized. I've seen Dez make some impressive plays, and I've seen him disappear in games and disappear from games because of injuries, playing with them or not playing because of them. Let's try to save the word 'elite' for players that have earned it. No, I don't. But I was waiting for that one. Let's take a look at one young player that had early success. And hasn't nearly achieved that level since: [YOUTUBE]4S5H6AtCAgk[/YOUTUBE] Some players play above their heads, albeit for short amounts of time. Many times, those players get future contracts based on that short amount of success and the possibility that they could re-attain that level. Instead of being paid what they're worth. You seem intent on proving your argument with box score stats. Champ Bailey is not the Champ Bailey he once was. But his technique is similar to Cro's as a 'gambler' and he did it far better in his prime than Cro ever has, even in his 2007 baby-fest 10 pick season. He was 1st team all pro in that season, by the way. And for some reason it's out of the question to think he should at least make 2nd team all pro with the Jets, who just gave him a pretty handsome payday not too long ago. Funny thing, Bailey is now being paid on reputation, where Cromartie is paid for potential. The difference between them is that at Cro's current age, Bailey was widely considered the best corner in the league. Rogers, well, every dog has his days, as Cromartie has reminded us many times. More to the point, you've ignored or mocked my argument in turn about players being better fits for this team rather than 'better corner in this league', without really providing an intelligent argument to the contrary. I'd take Joseph at his current contract, along with some other talented cover corners (on their current contracts), over Cromartie at his current price. I wouldn't take Bailey at his, because he's not worth it at this point in his career, even if he'd be a better fit than Cro at the 2CB spot. If we'd gotten Cro for a song of a contract, as Tanny has been known to do with players in the past, maybe I'd feel differently. But I'm not going to praise every single move that Tanny makes, especially when he gets outmaneuvered like he did with our corner situation. Because that would be a suckerfan thing to do. Which 2 penalties do you think were justified, pray tell? I saw him grab a harness outside the haskmarks on an intermediate pass and I saw him hook the receiver's hip on a crossing route. Both justified and by-the-book penalties, and both results of bad technique. On the 2 non-justified calls he was also beaten, but the contact didn't seem to warrant flags. He's not worth the money. Doesn't mean Cro is worth it. He's worth it, would be a better fit on the Jets than Cro. Also, in week 3 he was playing against one of the smarter QBs in the league in Drew Brees, with one on the more dynamic receiving corps. You jizzed yourelf when Cromartie had a good game against the great Luke McCown, so I guess your ability to take the opposing team into account is at least consistent in it's absence. Also not worth the money. Also doesn't mean Cro is worth it. Pretty much this entire post above is intent on distracting the overpayment to Cromartie by showing more examples of overpayment and giving me a bunch of box score stats of corners around the league. Instead of really arguing that Cro was worth the money, which you have stated to me multiple times. It's funny though, because you have gone out of your way to tell me that he was worth the money and then gone further out of your way to tell my why all corners are being overpaid. Kind of... self-contradictory. Plenty of people have stated, correctly, that the Cro contract was a necessary overpayment, but did not argue that he was worth the money. That's the winning argument, because it's objective and non-sucker. However, this post of yours is the first time you've really tried to make an intelligent debate on the point of market value, and while I'm disappointed that it took you until the 540th post in this thread to do it, I'm actually pleased that you've made the attempt. I also thank you for composing your response to me in advance, and I thank Miamipuck for making part of your argument for you, as Prince Of Thieves did earlier in the thread. Seems like you're at least knocking some of the rust off. You'll get there soon, big guy.
Dayum. Talk about a depth charge. But Mr Electric isn't completely unfamiliar with the practice of shooting off with incorrect football data to make his argument look stronger.
I knew that. ...and I don't doubt that NFL officials give a shit about what a head coach tells them before the game. The crew was garbage. It has nothing to do with what Hue Jackson or Rex Ryan said to them before the game. Dez Bryant's earned it. He's a scary player. There's a reason teams are using their #1 CBs on him instead of Miles Austin. They were justified penalties because Cromartie actually committed them. On both of those plays, he clearly grabbed the receiver when the ball was in the air. That's why they're justified. Of course he would be. He's the better player. They have the same fucking argument that I do.
Man, you went from almost providing a decent debate to the oversimplification crap. Do you think they called our grabbiest corner for multiple PI's out of coincidence? He's earned what? The label of 'potential elite wide receiver'? Isn't that kind of like a 'dropped interception'? Or are you now calling him an elite receiver? Because you weren't with that last post. Which plays? I asked for specifics. One I talked about because it was a crossing pattern (which I wouldn't expect to go for a TD because both Cro and the receiver were airborne when the penalty was made) and the other was a sideline route that wasn't even a fly, the receiver was on a stop route and Cro had his back to the QB completely, but he wasn't out of position to make the tackle if the catch was made. What specific plays are you talking about, that woudl have resulted in 'big plays'? They do now! :wink:
Honestly, is that all you've got? It sure seems like it. Yes, he earned the label of potentially elite wide receiver. Just like Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, and Andre Johnson did in their early years in the league. Play 1. Deep pass when Cromartie grabbed Moore so he couldn't get behind him. Play 2. Crossing route when Cromartie turned Moore just before the ball got there. Those were legitimate calls made by the officials. In this thread, you've been the one to question my playing day, but have you ever played corner or any kind of defensive back position for that matter? If the receiver beats you with a move, you're kind of forced to turn your back to the QB and run with him. Emoticons are gay.
All I've got? You're trying to say that refs don't listen to coaches in their pre-game meetings. What kind of response did that warrant? I may have agreed if you'd said that they wouldn't listen to Hue Jackson as much, and given some sort of intelligent reason, maybe. I suppose I could have scrounged through other peoples' posts for an argument, but I'd rather just laugh at the lack of logic in that line of thinking. That crew of refs was lacking in judgment overall, but when you see one guy get flagged 4 times for the same thing (twice it was justified) then you get the feeling that they were watching him for it, because he has a history of it. And there's never been a 'potential elite wideout' that never lived up to their early hype, right? Guys that lookedl ike they were going to dominate and then just leveled out at above average? I see, you seem to think that when Cromartie blatantly grabs the laces of the receiver's pads and yanks him down, that it's not interference. Your play #1 was one of the unjustified calls. Cro was handfighting with Moore down the sideline and Moore lost his running rhythm and fell on his ass. Cro's mistake was keeping his hands on the receiver as he was falling down, but it wasn't really a justifiable interference call. I was never really small or quick enough to play d-back except in my middle school days, although I played pass coverage as both lineman and linebacker. It's no matter however, as the play you thought I was talking about isn't the play I was talking about, as should have been apparent when I referred to it as a 'stop route'. Maybe I should have called it a hitch, but I'm not sure you would have reacted any different anyway.
Im just glad he isnt on our team anymore. Cromartie is a wuss who doesnt like to tackle and avoids it often as you now know. He can be good but he will cost you games too. You would think a guy with as many kids as he has and needds to support, he would do whatever it takes to succeed but he is just a wuss. Now you are feeling the frustration that we all felt , especially after that ole' non tackle of Green in the playoffs that inferiated us all.
If you watched one game, you'd realize that he's making an effort to tackle and that he hurt his ribs tackling. Your argument should have been that he never uses technique to play CB and its no different than a pickup game in the park with him. He'll just use his speed to cover his assignment.
Wasn't it reported that he hurt his ribs scrambling to recover his muffed kickoff return? I have actually seen him making more of an effort in the past couple of games to impede the ball carrier, on rare occasions, but his technique is so bad that he's not any more effective. Effort on the field doesn't in itself equal results. Arm tackles like he tries to make end up being needless injuries a lot of times, too.
Depending on how Kyle Wilson develops, Cromartie's deal can actually just be 2 yrs, $13mil. Year 3 and 4 have his salary cap hit at $10.75 mil each, with dead money of $2.5 mil at the end of 2012. Unless Wilson becomes bust, or unless Cromartie polishes his talent and becomes a top 5 corner in the NFL, he'll be cut or traded away after 2012, making this deal essentially a 2 yr $13mil. Thats about what his actual value would be.
Can't defend Cromartie's performance in the last game, that's for sure. It may have been passable without the muffed kickoff, but that was the nail in the coffin. He can't be making those types of mistakes. That being said, I'm sticking by him in spite of how badly he fucked up. I'm not backing off my sentiment that I think he'll be worth what he's getting paid over the life of the contract. If he turns in a few more efforts like he did against the Raiders, though, I'll be eating crow sooner rather than later. The silver lining is that Kyle Wilson looks really good. If Cromartie can't play next week, the secondary shouldn't miss a beat.
its simple he is a boom or bust player and IMO the boom potential outweighs the bust. u just have to put up with the flags and mental errors.
Yup, that's pretty much it, although we have yet to see whether the boom is going to outweigh the bust this year. So far, one okay game, one great game and one godawful game. Pretty much a wash so far...
Its not Wilson that worries me, it's what have behind Wilson. Strickland is serviceable, but who else do we have that can cover? Unless proven, the answer is no one.
