1. Ok, so you argue he isn't top 3 in the league, or maybe top 5. Ok I can live with a GM who is at the begininng of his career being a consensus top 10 GM in the league today. I personally feel he is better than that but hey debating is what the offseason is for. 2. Gholston wasnt a trade up, which is why I didnt bring him up. Tanny has not been wrong about a single player we have traded up for. They will all be starters on next years team and a handful of them are superstars in the making. Also, why should we hold it against tanny if we have a stellar scouting department that can help make his draft decisions easier? Edit: Harvey was taken 8th overall, no media pundits were yelling reach (like they did with Alualu) last year. Boller was the #2 QB in the draft, and the Ravens obviously felt he was going to be the future of their franchise, otherwise, why would they take him? My point here is, that none of the guys we traded up for were considered "can't miss" consensus studs, just like these boller and Harvey. It's easy in hindsight to say oh there is no way Revis would bust, but at the time he had questions. If not he would have gone top 3. Even Sanchez (the highest trade up tanny has, 5 overall) had several questions (mainly experience) and that he was far from considered a can't miss prospect either. 3. I went into this point already. The trade up becomes completely irrelevant by the second contract. At that point, its all about how the player has performed on the field. If he sucks, his second contract will be cheap. If he is great, (which is the case with Revis, Harris) his contract will be expensive. The same thing occurs whether we stand pat at our current draft position, or trade up. Harris and Revis second contracts would have been just as expensive if we stood pat instead of trading up because they are that good of players. 4. I don't disagree about the need to have a low turnover rate. But the way you made it sound was that we are going to lose all of those guys this offseason. Tanny will find a way to bring back more than half of them. I expect he will get 3 of the big 4 back (i'm hoping for the two receivers and Harris) and most of the rest of the smaller guys as well. 5. Again, we did not trade up for Gholston. He was a horribly bad pick. It's been documented Mangini demanded we select him, and we did. It doesn't absolve tanny, as he failed to stand up and say this guy will not work out here, and refuse to draft him. Either way, Gholston is irrelevant to this argument, since we didnt trade up for him. 6. Ok, well lets start listing the picks that Tanny has made that aren't currently starters for the Jets or played a significant role for us. 2006. 1 4(4) D'Brickashaw Ferguson T Virginia Pro-bowler 1 29(29) Nick Mangold C Ohio State All Pro, Best in Game 2 17(49) Kellen Clemens QB Oregon Career backup 3 12(76) Anthony Schlegel ILB Ohio bum 3 33(97) Eric Smith S Michigan State Starter 4 6(103) Brad Smith QB Missouri KOR/3rd Receiver/ST Stud 4 20(117) Leon Washington RB Florida State great player until his injury 5 17(150) Jason Pociask TE Wisconsin TE Dallas Cowboys, Backup 6 20(189) Drew Coleman CB TCU Nickelback 7 12(220) Titus Adams DT Nebraska Bum 2007. 1 14 (14) Darrelle Revis CB Pittsburgh All-pro, Best in Game 2 15 (47) David Harris ILB Michigan Pro-Bowler 6 3 (177) Jacob Bender T Nicholls State Bum 7 25 (235) Chansi Stuckey WR Clemson slot receiver, traded for Edwards 2008. 1 6 (6) Vernon Gholston OLB Ohio State Bum 1 30 (30) Dustin Keller TE Purdue Starter with potential 4 14 (113) Dwight Lowery CB San Jose State CB/S solid depth 5 27 (162) Erik Ainge QB Tennessee Drug Addict, Out of League 6 5 (171) Marcus Henry WR Kansas Carolina, depth player 7 4 (211) Nate Garner T Arkansas Dolphins, depth player 2009. Sanchez Starter with potential Greene Starter with potential Slauson Starter with potential 2010 is too early to call. So lets see, I count 4 guys who are worthless that tanny drafted, 9 starters and a handful of depth players in three drafts. I am betting not to many teams got 9 quality starters over 3 drafts. So out of the 23 players drafted in that span, tanny had 9 starters (39%) 4 bums (17%) and 10 depth guys (43%). no he doesnt draft great players all the time, but 40% of his picks are starters. Not too many GMs can say that. 7. We all want long term success, but you know what? you have to have short term success before long term success can develop from it. Tanny may be doing it differently than anybody has ever done it. But he is half way to long-term success. He has the short-term. Which as you agreed, is the best 2 year run the Jets have ever had (not including SB III). Just because he is doing it differently than everybody else, doesn't mean it isn't going to work.
I will say this: the Jets are a counter-culture team. Old-timers may disagree with the current regime's antics and opposing fans hate the Jet style but things seem to be going pretty damn well. I feel that it comes down to fear in change. The older crowd has seen decades of a similar, cliched style of football. No catering to the media, conventional draft techniques, certain styles of play, etc. The Jets are doing everything backwards and not everyone's warmed up to it. Rex is a media superstar, the Jets are the talk of the NFL (and successful to boot), and play a ground and pound/gritty defensive style that goes against the current pass-happy movement of the league. All of it IS working right now, whether conventional or not. Like the saying goes, there's more than one way to skin a cat.. or sumthin' like that. I'm not saying anyone here isn't on board with the new-age Jets, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't enjoying the hell out of what this team has become. I would wager good money that a lot of the lowly teams start adopting the Jets way of going about playing football. It happens when a team is successful. Belichick's coaching tree and style was gutted and spread around, the same way Parcells' tree has roots all around the NFL. It's a matter of time before Rex's understudies move on to new teams and infuse the bravado that brought on the rise of the New York fuckin' Jets.
The Chiefs are weird because they play a similar style of football but have half of Belichick's old staff coaching the team. It's like a bizarro AFC East transplant.
haha i attribute that to crennel and weiss no longer having the fun sucked out of them by belicheck that and Haley seems coked up 24/7 you better be on your feet when working for a coach like that
Tanny is a top 5 GM: http://www.csnbayarea.com/04/04/11/...ng_maiocco_v3.html?blockID=496960&feedID=5936 4. NEW YORK JETS Number of picks: 27 Still on team: 17 Starters: 9 Best pick: CB Darrelle Revis, 2007 Worst pick: LB Vernon Gholston, 2008 Overall: The Jets have capitalized on most of their first-round picks. Cornerback Darrelle Revis, chosen No. 14 in 2007, is on a different level than everybody else who plays his position in the league. Revis, left tackle D'Brickashaw Ferguson and center Nick Mangold have combined for eight Pro Bowl appearances. The jury is still out on quarterback Mark Sanchez, selected with the fifth overall pick in 2009. He has a 70.2 passer rating in his 31 career starts, but the team around him is the reason they've advanced two the AFC championship game the past two seasons. Gholston was easily the worst selection, as he failed to record a sack in three full seasons and was released in March. Read more: Maiocco: Five-year study of NFL drafts Tune to SportsNet Central at 6, 10:30 and midnight on Comcast SportsNet Bay Area for more on this story Completely fucking disagree about Sanchez though. He is an equal reason to why the Jets went to the AFCCG. He's a top 5 QB when playing in January. Now he needs to play that way September-December.
Sanchez has around a 100 passer rating in the playoffs. People just hate on him for his rookie season and because he doesn't pull off fantasy football stats yet. I think Sanchez will win over some haters this year, if there is a year.
agreed, in the next year or two sanchez will prove he is officially anything but a bust, and that he plays his best when the most pressure is on. He outplayed every QB in the playoffs except rodgers. He would have had a shot to go head to head if the defense could get 1 stop in the first half...
jetsrule, Thanks for your civil response. I apologize if I was rude or dismissive with you in my earlier response. I allowed the dismissive, arrogant responses of some other posters to color my response to you. I am enjoying our debate and you're giving me food for thought. I can live with that too, but would like to see him develop further and see that there are multiple ways of getting players, and that he doesn't always have to trade up. I don't hold it against Tanny that we have a stellar scouting dept. In fact, I'm very thankful for it, especially since Tanny was not a personnel guy. Thank God he hasn't been wrong on any of the trade ups. We wouldn't be sitting so well, if he had. Those misses are real killers. You still aren't addressing the point even though you say you are. I also disagree that the trade up becomes completely irrelevant by the 2nd contract. Because he started with a higher contract from being selected at an earlier point in the draft, his second contract will be at a higher level than it would have been had he been drafted lower. Those initial deals with those players they traded up for cost more than the contracts they would have signed otherwise with players taken at their regular draft position. That adds up. Factor in that they have to sign veteran FAs to fill in depth and they cost more than younger, cheaper players added in the draft, and the cap gets eaten up more quickly. I don't think we'll lose all the guys, but we may wind up losing some productive, contributing players that we otherwise would have brought back, but cannot due to cap constraints. I know that Gholston wasn't traded up for, but disagree that he shouldn't be included in Tanny's draft record, but I'm not killing him for Gholston. He wound up being a bad pick, but I can understand why they took him, even though I was against it. My point in mentioning him is that players taken higher in the draft have more expensive contracts (even those taken in the teens), and when they do bust, not only does it leave that position not addressed, but the team is left with a cap hit. If the team has traded up multiple picks to get a player who busts, then they've lost several potentially useful players. Even if the player turns out to be a very good player, there is still a cost to the team for not having players for the picks that were traded away. Sometimes those players traded up for are good enough that they make up for whatever was lost in giving away those other picks. That is certainly the case with Revis, and appears that it could be with Sanchez. It is much less certain that that will be the case with Keller, Greene or Harris. I like Harris a lot, he is solid, but he is slower than I'd like, and I don't think he qualifies as a "star." Actually, it's 8 starters over 4 drafts. Eric Smith has been only a part-time starter. Even if you include him it's not quite as good as you portray it to be, but still 2 starters a draft is nothing to sneeze at. I'll concede this point, except to say that when one is trading up, one had better get a quality starter. It's easier to find better players the higher one goes in the draft. They may not be consensus "studs" or "can't miss prospects" but still there's a reason why they're rated that highly and taken that high. Of course you're right than before one can have long term success, one must achieve short term success. He has done that. To be clearer, I don't think the reason it won't work has anything to do with the fact that he's doing it differently than everybody else. It's the actual philosophy he's espousing that I think could eventually lead to failure. I am actually an advocate of creative and out of the box thinking. As I also said, I like his aggressiveness, just would like to see him temper it on occasion and use a more varied approach.
always up for a good debate myself... The reason I pointed out Tanny never missing on a trade up, is because like you said misses are bad enough, trading up and blowing it is 10 times worse. the fact that he has never done it, means that he doesnt go and get a guy unless he is 100% confident (well the whole scouting department anyways) that the player is going to be great. I've decided the next point is purely a difference of opinion, where neither mind will change. I think that a trade up only gives the player any added leverage in his first contract. By the second contract (4 years later) its going to be all about his play. Who do you think is getting the bigger second contract? Brady Quinn (drafted 22 overall by Cleveland in 2007 in a trade up) Or Manny Lawson (Drafted 22 overall by San Fran in 2006, stand pat) My money is on Manny lawson getting a bigger 2nd contract, despite the fact quinn was traded up for and that he is a QB.... You think the second deal is affected by the trade up still. I don't its a difference of opinion that I doubt is about to change... I don't mean to remove gholston from tannys record, nor should it be. Gholston may have been a power play by mangini, but Tanny will forever be attached to that disaster... Like I said before, the only guys who set you back for years (if you miss on them) financially are the top 10 guys. It hurts no matter when you miss (or where) on a first rounder, but the top 10 guys you are stuck paying for the majority of their contract... vernon is a great example of that. but if Revis had bombed as bad as gholston did, we could have cut ties after year one and been alright financially. our team would have suffered because we needed revis to be revis badly. But financially we would have been alright. Keller, we gave up one pick for (our second and a 5th). We then traded down later in the draft to snag Dwight Lowery (and recouped the 5th rounder). So in my eyes, we lost no picks to acquire DK. which eliminates him from this argument. Greene is definately a question mark right now. His durability is a concern, but there is no denying he has the potential to be a terror. Harris is the 3rd best player at his position in the league in my opinion, behind patrick willis, and neck and neck with Ray Lewis. I expect next season Harris to surpass lewis as he ages and finally hits the wall. If he isn't your cup of tea, thats fine, but don't knock the man for being one of the best in the NFL. I counted smith because he was the starter opposite Leonhard most of the year, and Poole only played because of injury. But I also didnt count Leon washington or brad smith, both of whom are/were incredibly impactful members of our team. So the number is debateable between 8 and 11. but you are right netting 2 quality starters a draft is damn good, and very few gms can say that, much less that 40% of their DP's are starters... The next point is one I just don't seem to understand. You want him to vary his approach to the draft? Ok, 2006 he drafts a full compliment of players, 10 guys, with no trade ups (unless you count clemens, but we traded down, netted some picks, and moved back up for him, still coming out with a net gain in selections.) the next year we wheel and deal and get two studs. The next year, 6 picks one trade up, one trade down. the following year (sanchez draft) Tanny moves half the round for a 2nd round pick, and then goes to get greene. two trade ups. This past year he stood pat in the first, and did some wheeling to get Mcknight and Connor. both of which are going to be important in our future. He has a varied approach, but people don't see that he has stood pat for a year (2006) traded down deep in the draft to acquire more depth players (08) Gone up the boards (07,09) and traded players for picks (10). The man hasnt used the same draft strategy more than once. He has traded up more than down, but he has always come out ahead, and until he doesn't I don't see why we shouldnt give him the benefit of the doubt on draft day. either way, thats the last you will hear of me for the week. I'll be in Texas till sunday. looking forward to resuming this over the weekend!
Wow an actual, logical discussion/debate on football with no animosity behind it on TGG. What the fuck is going on here?
Why thank you kind sir you're right, the world has turned topsy-turvey! In order to return tgg to it's rightful order, Klecko you're an idiot! (Note: sarcasm, not intended to be sincere in any way)
Fantastic post, NJR! I don't feel like typing a lot. So.. I love Tanny's approach to the draft and cap. He is a blessing to have as a GM, his track record speaks for itself. He hasn't done anything that would make you hate the guy, unlike other GM's before him. We are in fantastic shape as a football team, and that is proven with the accomplishment of reaching the AFCCG twice in a row. Obviously we haven't got to the point everyone wants this team to be, winning the superbowl, but we are closer then we've ever been. Let's enjoy the ride! Hopefully it will be an extended one! I'm praying Rex will be our "Bill Cowher" per-say. I want Rexy here for a very long time, it would be nice to finally feel like we have a good team to cheer for, year in and year out.
You can bet every jets fan here should be rooting for Rex to be our Cowher. Hell most wanted Cowher (before Rex) with the hope that he would come in, restore order and turn us into a perrenial contender, with the hope he would spend the better part of a decade here. With any luck, Rex will be here for life. If he keeps up his success, he will be just fine, and will spend a long time here if he chooses to do so. Rex is the man, and it won't be very long before other GM's and Owners see our success and our bold and brash style of things, and start to hire fiery, outspoken guys to be their next HC trying to imitate us, just like the league has been trying to imitate bellicheck since 2001.
