And that plays into the hungry, hard working team the Jets have become under Rex and Tanny. A dream come true for me in terms of mentality and philosophy.
I think you're right about the whole team being shot when Leonard went down. A big part of the problem, however, was that that jackass Poole confessed that he had never bothered to learn the D until Leonard went down with injury. If Poole had been a professional and done his job, perhaps the whole team wouldn't have tanked. He could have stepped up, made a play or two to give the team some confidence, but even then the talent at S for the Jets was limited. Turner was pretty bad the first time he played significant time last year, but was much improved the second time. Still, if Mangold had gone down with injury, do you really think the drop off in line play wouldn't have been significant? What if Ducasse had been forced to play (or Robby Felix)? Yes, the DL depth did well but obviously not well enough to get us to the Super Bowl (it isn't solely their fault, however). I agree that the LB and TE depth was the worst, save possibly QB. I have been amazed at the job the team does in finding and signing UDFAs and getting them ready to contribute. Still, it is troubling that they have to rely on UDFAs so heavily. I hope you're right that they'll change if the formula fails (although I'm not sure that Rex is part of that formula). I'm not so sure about Tanny. I really think he's arrogant. Even if he is able to change and does, the problem is that we all know that windows of opportunity can be very small in the NFL. When/if it fails, the Jets could miss out on their window of opportunity and it could take years to rebuild and overcome the shortage of overall team talent. By that time, Rex could have moved on elsewhere. I don't want to see that happen. I appreciate that the team has some very good players and is playing at perhaps its highest, most consistent level ever. It is finally a team I can be really proud of and I believe is respected around the NFL.
The Jets are a good team now, and respected around the league. Yet, you want to insist that there is a problem at hand. That Tanny is an arrogant person because he doesn't abide by the "standards" of other GM's? Rex sure as hell doesn't abide by the coaching "standards", but he's turning out to be one hell of a coach. It's ok to do things a bit different from the next guy, that doesn't make you arrogant. I just don't get your argument at all. You complain about depth, but there are a lot more teams that are worse off in the depth department then we are. You complain that we don't draft enough players, and that it will hurt us in the long run. Says who? I know that this has hurt some teams in the past, but The Jets find quality depth players through F/A. They build our team of the future, through the draft. It is a smart formula to me. Get your building blocks through the draft, put pieces around them for the time being through F/A. Overtime, those concrete draft picks start to circulate, and a team begins to form around this approach. Almost all of our Offense has stemmed from this approach. Like I said, they have a winning formula, there is no reason to knock it until it fails. So stop complaining, it's working.
Agreed. It seems like the Jets only draft 3 guys a season these days but if Tannenbaum keeps striking gold by trading up then by all means keep doing it. If given the choice: draft 1 stud and no one else or draft 5 serviceable 'depth' players, I'll take the lone-stud 100 times out of 100. Besides, the Jets are a well-liked team by players across the NFL (in terms of playing here). We can pick up a JAG in free agency to plug holes.
Good example: The Jets 09 draft had 3 picks. They are all 2nd year players and they are starters. One finished his first season at LG in Slauson. The other two are a playoff winning franchise QB in Mark Sanchez and a battering ram in Shonn Greene. The 07 Miami Dolphins had 10 players drafted. Only Paul Soliai and their Punter Brandon Fields are starters. The others aren't doing shit. Soliai may be on another team this year. The Jets' system works. The name Joey Clinkscales is a name that has to be lauded amongst Jets fans. He is an elite Director of College Scouting in this league.
Yes, the Jets are a very good team now and respected, but that doesn't mean they should get cocky. They haven't won squat yet, so it really isn't a "winning formula" yet. Rex still has ways he can improve as a HC, most of us know that Schottenheimer has a LOT of room to improve, and Tanny can improve as well. No one's perfect. You act as if everything's perfect...that there are no problems, no needs on the team, and that our depth is anywhere near as good as our starters, and that's absurd. If it's such a winning formula, how come the Jets haven't won back-to-back Super Bowls the last two years? I think Tanny is arrogant for several reasons. One, is his ego. Did you see Hard Knocks and how he always was seeking to get on camera and be the center of attention? Can you seriously deny that he doesn't always seek to make a big splash in the draft and FA? He doesn't go about things in a quiet, business as usual manner. He loves all the attention. Two, there's a very good reason why the likes of Bill Polian, Kevin Colbert, Ron Wolf, Ted Thompson and others haven't done things that way. It can work short term, but it isn't an approach for building roster stability and long term success. It might be one thing if Tanny had had years of experience as a GM and developed this approach through experience. He doesn't, however. He came in as a novice and just sought to make a big splash in the draft. Almost any moron who knows anything about football, can trade up and get a very good or great player. That doesn't take any skill. It takes a lot more skill to stay put or to trade down and find those very good and great players, and get them at a cheaper price. Now if a rookie pay scale comes into place that should help matters somewhat, but Tanny gives agents ammo to use to demand bigger contracts when he trades up for players, plus he's taking players at higher spots that cost more. There's an old saying that I believe is apt for this situation. It's "Don't cut off your nose to spite your face." That's what Tanny is doing. He is creating a scenario where he puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the team. With his method, there will be little roster stability. There will be a revolving door of veteran role players and UDFAs. This works against Rex's family approach and one continually has new pieces to fit into the puzzle and to teach the systems to. It creates greater potential problems with the cap that he will have to deal with down the road. For that matter, the Jets may not be able to re-sign both Edwards and Holmes this offseason, plus lose Cromartie because of cap space. With better work in the draft, the Jets wouldn't have to shell out so many big contracts to FAs or for players that were taken higher in the draft. It's not about blind adherence to a set of standards that others have followed, yet ironically, I think that's what Tanny is doing...He developed a philosophy of liking "quality over quantity" and now follows that almost blindly, as if one cannot get both quality and quantity at the same time. He also ignores getting value with his picks. If his way succeeds and the Jets win a couple of SBs, great. At that time we can all celebrate his vision and the Jets' success and I will most happily shout from the rooftops that I was wrong. The best GMs trade up occasionally, trade down occasionally, but generally stay put and get excellent players. I like his aggressiveness, just believe that he needs to temper it somewhat. I totally believe that one must take each draft differently. No two drafts are alike in terms of depth and strength of positions, nor is the team the same from year to year. Trading up once every 3-4 years is ok, but should be balanced by trading down in a succeeding year if possible. Trading up almost every year is not ok. It has never been a philosophy that anyone has followed in the NFL and for good reason...it's just basic common sense. IMO it is nothing but sheer arrogance on Tanny's part to think that it will work for him. Your comments and questions betray your youth and lack of experience. If you had been following the draft and the NFL for anywhere near as long as I have, you wouldn't even ask those questions or make the comments you have.
makes me laugh because then..... Apparently, if you follow the draft as long as you have, you watch Hard Knocks and take every frame per second as gospel as to what goes on behind the scenes. That whole post is another example of how the under-30 Jets fans have a lot better grasp of this team and franchise. New and different is okay.
1.How is Tanny supposed to have developed his "years of experience as a GM" and drafting in this manner, if this is his first job? The way he drafts and attacks FA, there is no way in the world he would come available unless his owners were stupid. Tanny is one of the top 3-5 GM's in the league as far as acquiring talent goes. So for building a talented team, Tanny has been very successful, despite his lack of experience... 2. Doesn't take any skill to trade up and land a stud? Ok, well even if thats true, which I will argue against momentarily, it sure as hell takes guts to do it. Trading up for a player (especially in your first draft) puts the GM's head on the chopping block if you are wrong. Tanny has done it time and again showing guts to make the risks needed to improve the team. If it took no skill to trade up and land a stud, then why do teams trade up and draft busts all the time? Derrick Harvey a couple years ago, Kyle Boller was a trade up I believe. The results are pretty even in terms of trade ups (just like regular picks) in terms of getting a great player, vs. a non-factor. 3. Rookie pay scale is irrelevant to every one of Tanny's trade ups with the exception of Sanchez. When you trade up in round 1, yeah you will have to pay more, but its not an insane amount of difference in the money until you are trading up into the top 7 or so picks. Which we have done once, for Mark. If he isn't worth the money, as our franchise QB, I don't know who would have been. 4. Little roster stability? You say this like 3/4 of our roster is going to be here one year, and gone the next. Which is blatantly untrue. Over the last few years we have essentially the same amount of turnover as the rest of the teams in the league. This year, we have more FA then normal, but I expect more than half of them back. 5. No, trading up had nothing to do with the cap issues the last couple years. The fact that we selected studs when we traded up, that is what is causing the issues. Because they are great players, we have to pay them more money. If we traded up and they sucked, we wouldnt have to pay them much at all to retain them. 6. Nope, if we kept the picks we had, and continued to land studs with every selection (which is more or less what tanny has done with his 3-5 picks every year). We would be even worse off capwise, because we would have even more great players we would have to pay. 7. You can't really say that his method isn't working either. Back to back AFCCG for the first time in our history is a pretty damn good accomplishment. Is it a super bowl? No, absolutely not. But if it isn't a gigantic step forward in bringing us to the promised land, i'm not sure what kind of seasons leading up to it we would like to see.
Keep telling yourself that, slick. That's the problem with you young kids today. You're arrogant. You think you know everything. That you're smarter than those that have come before and give no respect to the experience that we have. Many of you are just damned fools.
IMO, age has nothing to do with the issue. I know many that are younger than I who are much smarter. I know many who are older that are dumb as a box of rocks. One thing for certain, any more name calling in this draftforum and you can have an extended hiatus.
1. I didn't say he should have developed years of experience. I just said he's a novice at this, so doesn't really know what he's doing. One of the top 3-5 GMs in the league? Maybe, but if so, it's because guys like Ron Wolf have retired and Bill Polian handed the reins over to his son Chris. Better than Kevin Colbert, Ozzie Newsome, Ted Thompson? No way. 2. It's documented that Tanny isn't a personnel guy. He is a numbers cruncher and an attorney. He relies heavily on the scouting dept., Bradway and Rex. So it isn't just his head if he misses. They have done well on the tradeups, but then they'd better have or they probably wouldn't be here now. They sure missed on Gholston, and that's the killer, but you guys wanna just sweep that under the carpet. The skill involved in trading up is in negotiating and trying to get a reasonable deal to move up. When there's a guy that's a consensus stud, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know you like that guy and he'd help your team. Yes, some of those players miss. Neither Harvey or Boller were consensus studs, by any stretch of the imagination. 3. You're wrong. All those deals add up. Then there's the second contract they sign. Because they started out with a bigger contract, their second contract gets even more bloated. You get too many players like that along with some other high priced FAs and you're in a tight cap situation. Every year since Tanny took over as GM they've had some cap issues. IMO he was better with the cap before he took on the added responsibilities as GM, but he has handled all of them to date, with no major losses. I give him credit for that, but all the juggling, games and pushing payments off into the future can wind up biting you. 4. That's your interpretation. I mentioned no percentage or number of players. Still, the Jets have something on the order of 14 or so FAs this year. Four of whom are important starters, one is a long time solid starter who deserves to retire a Jet, but they may not be able to re-sign him because of the cap. Another is the major KOR, and the rest are guys who see a good deal of playing time and are contributors. Every NFL team has turnover every year. It's part of the business, but it's better when this turnover is kept to a minimum and the core of the team is kept together, when players are replaced because of age, injury or an upgrade in talent, and not because you can't afford to retain them. 5. You're flat out wrong on this point that the tradeups have nothing to do with this year's cap problems. Gholston sucks and they're still having to take a big cap hit on him. If you think the fact that the Jets traded up for Revis has nothing to do with his two holdouts and big money he's getting paid, or how that affects the cap, you're very naive. 6. Right. If Tanny had done a better job with the draft, the Jets wouldn't have had to trade for Edwards, Holmes or Cromartie. They could have had players that were possibly close to their ability, yet who were younger, much cheaper and would be with the team longer. No one drafts studs with every pick. Tanny hasn't done that. That's absurd. 7. I didn't say it isn't working short term. I responded to meandean who spoke as if the Jets had already reached the top and it was a long term success. It isn't. Yes, that's the best in team history and I'm very excited about it, but I've seen the Jets have lots of promise before only to see everything turn to crap. That's my whole point with this. I want long term success. I don't want a couple of great years, then go right back to the mediocre (and worse) crap of most of the previous 40 years. Many things can work in the short term, but not over time. Part of the brashness of youth and inexperience is that one is different than others. The same rules don't apply and one will be able to get by with risky behaviors that others haven't. Yet every day, young people are seriously injured or die needlessly in car wrecks, from alcohol poisoning, drugs, stupid risky acts, and people screw their lives up because they didn't learn from others. I'm not saying I don't want Tanny to succeed, even though some of his act does piss me off. Quite the opposite in fact. He's the best GM the Jets have ever had, and has the potential to become one of the top GMs in the game. He's already one of the top cap managers and negotiators. I want to see him develop into THE top GM in the game, bring the Jets multiple SB titles, create a dynasty of sorts, and keep the Jets continually at the top. I just don't think he will be able to do that with his present philosophy and approach.
I didn't call anyone here a name. I just made a broad, general statement about younger generations. I see it every day in every facet of life. It doesn't apply to all, but does to some. My statement was no worse than yours saying that many older people are dumber than a box of rocks.
You can't be so black and white about it. The Jets may not have won the superbowl the past two years but neither did 29 other teams. To say that the Packers and Saints are the only 'successful' teams because they won the VLT (and basing this on the draft) is nonsense. These may not be your words verbatim but it sounds like this is what you're implying. The Jets, over the past 5 years, have drafted as good if not better than any other team in the NFL. This is even more impressive when you take into account the success-rate recently versus number of total selections. I take it that the Raiders and Jets have equal failure in the draft because they share the crucial element you're referencing: no superbowl win. Obviously that is bullshit. You may not like it but to say it's not a winning formula is wrong in my opinion. I'd rather Tanny do it his way than go the Belichick route and take 12 players every draft where 10 of them do not make the roster. Also, regarding the cap problem: good players want big money. Simple as that. Revis is the best CB in the league. He wants the best salary which is understandable, although annoying because Aso's contract was so ridiculous. Same thing for guys like Brick, Mangold, Harris, Braylon, etc. You can't expect guys to be perennial probowlers and then play for chump change. Holdouts are annoying but it's the only bargaining chip these players have, for that I'll forgive them. Revis got a bit greedy but trading up for him had nothing to do with him holding out.
"Slick"???? "Arrogant""???? "Fools?"??? "Naive"??? Sounds like names to me, cut the crap. This wasn't just referring to you, also NDmick who made a statement about the "under 30 group". I was trying to use an analogy, it works both ways. . "Broad, general staement about the younger generation". Let's not get into stereotypes, cause that's what you are referring. Stick to the subject, don't bring age into to it, it's not relevant. Base your argument to your opinion of the facts.
The first holdout was because he wanted 5 years not 6. 2nd was to be the highest paid corner in the league. This has gotten ridiculous.
Both of which, would have happened whether we drafted Revis at our original draft position or at 14(?) where we traded up to draft him. Which is my point. He hald out because he is the best in the game, not because we traded up for him.
Good lord, how many draft prospects have anything close to their ability? Four? And they are taken in the 1st round of the draft. So you would want tanny to trade up more to find those kids rather than getting Santonio Holmes for a fucking 5th rounder? Your paragraph states that if Tanny did a better job in the draft, he wouldn't need SANTONIO HOLMES for a 5th round pick. I can't fathom that logic.
