Cakes is well within his right to defend his team as vehemently as he wants. He's put together a pretty great unit that has IMO had some matchup problems that has stopped him from winning some close games. If you don't like it provide an in depth post about why he's wrong.
RE: What I bolded- Why do you say that? With 32 degree weather we wouldn't be talking about a blizzard and 3 feet of snow here. We'd probably be talking about a light dusting. Plus, there are plenty of examples of teams moving the ball through the air in snow. Snow is usually more of a problem for cornerbacks than for wide receivers and quarterbacks. One example: Dolphins-Bills 1990 playoff game won by Buffalo 44-34. After you had posted this, I noted the snow and alerted Murrell2878 to list Leroy Kelly as my starting tailback because he was one of the ultimate bad weather backs. Kelly and Faulk would probably split carries in this game at a 60/40 ratio. Because of the light snow, I would probably go to 3-WR sets. A typical formation would include Rice at flanker, Faulk in the slot, and Warfield at split end. I also would try to run the trap to death, which was a Kelly staple. I have posts buried on this board where I listed Montana as the 2nd best QB behind Unitas. I had Staubach at 5. So obviously, I give the starting QB nod here to MSUJet85. However, and this is a big however, I don't see how you could say Montana is head and shoulders better than Unitas, Elway, Staubach, Graham, etc. The top 7 or 8 quarterbacks, you could almost list them in any order. They are all close. Staubach did retire as the NFL's all-time leading passer, by the way. Staubach was also a tremendous 4th quarter QB. 14 comebacks with under 2 minutes remaining. In this fantasy matchup, each QB would be capable of leading his team to a win in the final minutes. You will have to be consistent with this Montana thing throughout the tournament.
Your theory holds no weight now. There has been a ton of activity in this thread in the past 24 hours and it has been battling the Draft Analysis thread for top spot in the NFL section for most of these past 24 hours. By 1:00 AM Monday morning MSUJet85 had received 7 votes. Since that time there have been many more posts in this thread and detailed posts from me. MSUJet85 has received 0 votes in the last 22 hours.
I will post my analysis of this matchup tonight. In the meantime, I would love to see the reasoning behind the pro-Cakes votes. We have multiple anti-Cakes explanations here. I'll love to see the balance. If we have future voters here and they are on the fence about this matchup and then they see more than one person provide anti-Cakes reasons and then zero people back my team, it can make that voter on the fence easily cast a vote for MSUJet85. (This is why I thought it would be an excellent idea to have people assigned to support each team. For instance, Murrell must provide a pro-Cakes post here and Donnie must provide a pro-MSU post. I later came to the conclusion that might be screwy if Murrell really didn't think my team would win or Donnie really didn't think MSU's team would win. What we should have done was have judges. A panel of a few people who would have to comment on each game. As it stands now, outside of kinghenry89 here or arsenal there or WinstonBiggs and a few others, the ten people with teams are the ones doing most of the talking. It's as if American Idol {I use this for the analogy, because even those of us who don't watch the show know how it operates} decided next year that America won't vote. Instead the American Idol contestants will vote amongst themselves to determine the winner. Imagine all the bickering and fighting that would occur? That's sort of what we're doing here and it's kind of ridiculous.) The game threads that have at least one person openly supporting and explaining why he voted for Team A and then another voter openly supporting and explaining why he voted for Team B, are the best game threads. So I'd like to know why people found for my team. This is now the third straight week where I have not had anyone explain why they voted for my team. Thanks in advance to anyone who may vote for my team at some point this week and provide an explanation for that vote.
I'll break this down several different ways. Position-by-position MSUJet85's players on left, Cakes' players on right, better player is in bold QB- Joe Montana-Roger Staubach RB- Marcus Allen-Marshall Faulk RB- Marion Motley-John Henry Johnson WR- Don Maynard-Paul Warfield WR- Steve Largent-Jerry Rice TE- Mike Ditka-Jackie Smith LT- Jim Parker-Winston Hill LG- Steve Wisniewski-John Hannah C- Jim Langer-Bulldog Turner RG- George Musso-Larry Little RT- Rayfield Wright-Bob Brown K- Lou Groza-Jan Stenerud P- Matt Turk-Reggie Roby DE- Gerry Philbin-Tombstone Jackson DT- Joe Greene-Bob Lilly DT- Warren Sapp-Buck Buchanan DE- Chris Doleman-Charles Haley OLB- Junior Seau-Bobby Bell MLB- Willie Lanier-Dick Butkus OLB- Robert Brazile-Jack Ham CB- Herb Adderley-Lem Barney SS- LeRoy Butler-Kenny Easley FS- Cliff Harris-Brian Dawkins CB- Louis Wright-Roger Wehrli I really believe I have a big edge in defense. As I have stated each week- in my own game threads and in game threads that do not even involve my team- I will back up all of my decisions if anyone wants to debate them. The way I see it: Offense- Cakes 6, MSUJet85 5 Kick Specialists- Cakes 2, MSUJet85 0 Defense- Cakes 9, MSUJet 2 Breaking it down further: QB- MSUJet (1-0) RB- tie (1-1) WR- Cakes (2-0) TE- MSUJet85 (1-0) OL- Cakes (3-2) K- Cakes (1-0) P- Cakes (1-0) DE- tie (1-1) DT- Cakes (2-0) LB- Cakes (3-0) CB- tie (1-1) S- Cakes (2-0)
The backups- Fran Tarkenton or Sonny Jurgensen? Edge: Jurgensen and Cakes. Jim Thorpe or Leroy Kelly? Edge: Thorpe and MSUJet85. Chad Johnson at WR or Charlie Sanders at TE? not applicable Canell Lake at FS or Hanford Dixon at CB? not applicable
So who just voted? Either way you go, can we see a reason for the vote? It would be a courtesy to the ten of us who put a ton of work into this.
Defensively, Cakes has a pretty big advantage. This is going to be primarily a running game, and Staubach has a bigger arm to deal with the wind and the snow. Kelly and Allen is pretty much a watch, and so are the lines, so Cakes' defensive edge gives him the game.
I have Paul Warfield as the 3rd greatest wide receiver of all time (behind Rice and Hutson). He was the 14th wide receiver chosen in this draft*, along with being the best player on the 1972 undefeated Dolphins. Therefore, my competitors in this tournament, who happen to be the majority of the voters, may not realize how great Warfield truly was. Hopefully, this excerpt from "Fear and Loathing at the Super Bowl" from The Great Shark Race by Hunter S. Thompson will help back my claim that Warfield was a top tier Hall of Famer. *In the draft I grabbed Rice in the 1st round and addressed other positions with my next 13 picks. When I went for my second WR it was the 15th round. Warfield, Charley Taylor, Fred Biletnikoff, Lynn Swann, James Lofton, Sterling Sharpe, and Bobby Mitchell were still available. Easy call with Warfield.
I think Cakes has the better team, especially the front seven with Easley for additional run support. I would call Bob Lilly vs Joe Greene a push at best though. Also, Warfield is an excellent receiver, but to call him 3rd best behind Rice and Hutson is a real stretch. I am not sure that Warfiield is even in the top 10 of all time receivers.
You are allowed to disagree. But, From NFL's Greatest , an official NFL book, here are the wide receivers that made the top 100 players list: Lance Alworth Raymond Berry Fred Biletnikoff Tom Fears Elroy Hirsch Don Hutson Steve Largent Jerry Rice Charley Taylor Paul Warfield
Here's the Warfield write-up from the book. (And I can do this for all the teams; I have done stuff like this for my opponents. If anyone wants me to post something like this for one of MSUJet85's players, I'll do it.)
Well I will put my input on this, first off, going at this comparing position vs. position wouldn't accurately be able to judge who would win this game. Secondly, in the snow, I think my West coast offense will be able to move the ball slightly better than yours, being able to dink and dunk down the field with my receivers, Ditka and Allen while having the ability run down the field with the power of Motley. To break this down, in the snow against these defenses I believe that both QBs will be effected negatively, both played the large majority of their games in hotter climates in Dallas and San Fran so it will nullify a lot of this WR debate, although in shorter passes I trust Montana more than Staubach. And think that is the reason why I would win a close game
From Rick Korch's The Truly Great. Book contains a foreword by Gale Sayers. This was a 1993 book. At that time, Rice had only played 9 seasons, Marvin Harrison was in college, etc. WR rankings: 1. Don Hutson 2. Jerry Rice 3. Raymond Berry 4. Steve Largent 5. Paul Warfield 6. Lance Alworth 7. Elroy Hirsch 8. Art Monk 9. Bobby Mitchell 10. Charley Taylor 11. Fred Biletnikoff 12. Tom Fears 13. Don Maynard 14. James Lofton In the back of the book, experts were polled as to who they felt was the best player in NFL history. Rick Korch- Jim Brown Jim Campbell- Larry Wilson Joe Horrigan- Don Hutson Bob Oates- Dick Butkus Bob Carroll- Don Hutson Bill Wallace- Lawrence Taylor David Neft- Ernie Nevers Paul Zimmerman- Marion Motley Beau Riffenburgh- Sammy Baugh John Steadman- Marion Motley Cooper Rollow- Walter Payton Jack Clary- Jim Brown Chuck Heaton- Otto Graham Mickey Herskowitz- Sammy Baugh
First off, thanks for posting. I wrote a long post last night. I spent an hour on it and got too tired to proofread and haven't posted it yet. It was meant for the baseball tournament but will apply here. Basically, the theme is I think too many people are fantasizing about the games. I think we have to base this whole thing on who drafted better. There is no real way to determine how these games would play. But if Team A has the better QB, the better LB, the better P, on and on, till Team A has the better guy 18 out of 24 spots, I gotta give Team A the win. See my above post about why I think the snow is not an issue in the passing games. But again, I think we're fantasizing too much in general in these game threads.
OK first off, the kicking game probably won't matter in this game, secondly a lot of that is your opinion, since we can't really judge who is better since it was during different time periods, and thirdly, the difference of who is better for the most part will be slight in these teams so in a game it would be a toss up anyway
