Cassell is a below average QB who has only had success playing in the Patriots system. I'm not saying or suggesting that Brady sucks, but he benefited from playing in that system. Brady is a much better QB than Cassell and I'm not saying otherwise.
Wow. You really have no idea what you're talking about. I don't even care about the Manning/Brady debate all that much, but you're arguing from a position of complete misinformation.
I don't live 300 miles away. I live in Connecticut. And I have done a ton of research on this subject because junc has said for a long time that he wasn't going to survive the season and at 0-2 there were grumblings that he was going to lose his job. The FACTS are that he wasn't going to lose his job at that point and that there weren't rumblings about it. The only thing that existed were negativity towards his in game decisions or game plans after a loss. That happens to Rex Ryan currently when we lose, but there is no way Rex is losing his job. I can assure you I do know my Football History. That Ron Borges article does not suggest that Belichick was in the hot seat. Borges is a known Belichick hater. I'm not asking for you guys to provide me with anything official. Just provide me something that says his job was in jeopardy. THIS is what junc has said. THIS is what YOU have said. I understand that there was fan frustration, but that doesn't mean in anyway that BB's job was in jeopardy. I don't understand why you have to resort to personal attacks (to a mod no less) when you can't prove your point. FACT - BBs job was not in jeopardy after 0-2 That's all I'm saying.
Really? Benjamin Watson Daniel Graham Deion Branch Chad Jackson Laurence Maroney Bethel Johnson Those were all 1st and 2nd round picks for NE. NONE of them equal a 4th and 6th round picks that Manning plays with.
Nobody knows if Belichick was truly in any jeopardy with the Krafts. But do you think if they had gone 5-11 again in 2001, or worse, that he would have kept his job? Like Jerry Glanville once said, this is the NFL, which stands for "Not For Long." The Patriots went to the Super Bowl in 1996. Lots of excitement about the team being back on the map. Parcells left, Carroll took over, and they were worse each year under his watch (10-6, 9-7, and finally 8-8, and Carroll was gone). They had a very popular, 1st-pick-in-the-draft QB who was looked at as a savior of sorts. And he was getting older... the window to be good was closing. And no, people were not cheering when he was hurt, or anything along those lines. Bledsoe was almost god-like around here for most fans. Pick up "Education of a Coach." It talks about how Belichick wanted to elevate Brady. He knew what he was up against though, and was vilified in Cleveland for benching and then cutting Kosar in favor of Testaverde. When Bledsoe went down, he got his chance to put in "his" guy. It's a pointless exercise to credit Brady for saving Belichick's career, or to credit Belichick for making Brady a star. They're both instrumental and always have been. I apologize for anything perceived as a personal attack. I'm an admitted smartass. I'm not trying to make it nasty, so I'm sorry about that. But a lot of what you've posted in this thread simply isn't accurate.
Manning has had Marvin Harrison (1st), Reggie Wayne (1st), Dallas Clark (1st), Edgerrin James (1st), Joe Addai (1st)... and there have been guys like Anthony Gonzales, also a 1st, who hasn't done anything even when he was healthy. Are you apply the same rules to those guys or no, because it doesn't work for your argument? And none of the guys you listed have had a lot of success outside NE either. I'm not sure but I think Bethel Johnson may have made me a bagel this morning at Dunkin'. Graham has been a blocking TE in the NFL, Watson can't run routes (how is that the QB's fault?), same for Chad Jackson, Deion Branch was a SB MVP and has had his best years in NE... and Maroney? A bust at RB is the QB's fault? To suggest that Brady's been surrounded by offensive talent while Manning has had to make chicken salad out of chicken shit is, and I'm sorry, just asinine.
Before I get to the rest of your post this scenario is something completely different. IF Belichick and the Pats finished 5-11 then maybe he would have been fired. BUT, the point that's been made is that his job was in jeopardy after 0-2. I have not seen anything that confirms this, and I don't remember any word about him being on the hot seat or in jeopardy of losing his job at the end of September 2001. I do want to read "Education of a Coach". I've been very interested in many things related to BB lately. No worries on the personal attack. I was being a smart ass. I don't believe that I have posted inaccurate things in this thread. I have posted facts, some of which you have confirmed as well. There may have been a misinterpretation between you and I, but my posts regarding BB's job being in jeopardy are directed at juncs assumption this his job was in jeopardy when there is nothing to suggest that being true.
My point on this is that junc says that Manning is surrounded by elite talent and includes guys like Austin Collie, Pierre Garcon and Jacob Tamme. I am saying that those guys are as good as they are because they play with Manning. Junc also says that Brady is surrounded by scrubs. But, the Pats have invested top picks on offensive weapons but NONE of them are even on the level of the 3 guys listed above for Manning. I'm not saying that Brady has had the same type of players Manning has, but I am saying that those three guys that Manning has are as good as they are because they play with Manning. Meanwhile Brady has been given weapons to work with and none of them have succeeded. The only one who has had a level of success has been Deion Branch.
I kinda gotta side with this argument. Players have left the Pats and never been heard from again (mostly). They have a great ability to plug in guys at any level and get everything they can out of them. I credit the coaching staff and the system a bit more than I do Brady in this though. Granted, having an accurate, clutch passer helps without a doubt. But even when Brady went down, they plug in a guy who didn't play since HS and he just took right off. I think the CS does a phenomenal job of preparing people to step up on offense or defense. And where Manning has always been surrounded with such great talent, I think that is where he garners his "choke" status. Although I think he did a lot to help that this year surviving all the injuries they had.
I never once called them top tier talent. Manning apologists like to act like those guys are off the street players who had no talent. That isn't the case. The cap factored into it, you cannot have a backup QB taking up that much cap room I apologize if it came across any other way. It was about cheering when he couldn't play not cheering the injury much like Chad for us in 2007. He led the Pats to the AFC Championship Game w/ reche Caldwell and Jabar gaffney as his main weapons. Of course it was all luck:lol: Peyton lost to the 2000 Miami dolphins led by Jay Fiedler Peyton was SHUT OUT by the 9-7 2002 NY Jets Peyton lost to the 8-8 SD Chargers in 2008. Peyton's wins- mediocre broncos in '03 and '04 beat mediocre KC team in '06 beat no offense Baltimore in '06 beat NE where Brady had 2 main weapons in Caldwell and Gaffney beat Chi led by Rex grossman Let's not talk about teams these guys have beaten. I love how you exclude Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark. It's a fact since day 1 Manning has been surrounded w/ overall elite level talent on offense. Not many QBs get to go from Marvin Harrison to reggie Wayne or have BOTH of them to throw to for many years. Not many have a Dallas Clark or Edge James either. Brady had elite offensive talent for one healthy season and went 16-0 w/ a SB trip, Brady had a good RB comparable to Edge for pretty much one season before Dillon started breaking down.
W/ all those injuries he still had Reggie Wayne and Pierre Garcon to throw to all year. That's a better dup than most in the NFL. Manning just gets way too much credit when Indy wins and way too little blame when Indy loses.
Another systems argument... Playing for Manning or Brady is going to boost your ability because they are accurate, smart passers who limit their mistakes. The guys that you say Manning is boosting though isn't just due to Manning. It helps when you have top talent like Wayne and Clark as weapons because when a team focuses on them, it creates opportunities down the ranks. The Pats didn't really have that sort of advantage until they got Moss and Welker. I have never felt like they had more talent than Manning has had available to him though. They are just better at getting the extra mileage out of who they do have.
I was under the impression Wayne was dinged a lot of the year, or a good stretch of it and playing hurt, but yeah, he's got a great cast available to him most of the time. On offense, he's usually had the better talent. I don't disagree with you though about the credit issue on QBs... you can say that of a few of them. We see it at times with the Jets.
Fair enough. The only guy the Patriots had that was on the same level as Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne was Moss. Brady has had some weapons, but more often than not, he's had to make it work with very low-profile guys. David Patten, David Givens, Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney... some of the guys who were key players in the game-winning drive against the Rams are far from household names. Jermaine Wiggins? JR Redmond? So even though Manning's taken guys like Collie and Garcon and made them fairly famous, I think it's fair to say that's happened for both him and Brady. I usually don't get into the Manning/Brady debates because they're both still playing with some good years left. It would be reasonable to make a case for either one. I obviously have my own preference but I respect Manning's production and what he's done. I just think, over the years, he's had more help than Brady has.
You act like they are top tier talent and that they make Manning better. They are 4th and 6th round draft picks that play at a high level because of who is throwing them the ball. How come the 1st and 2nd round draft picks given to Brady didn't turn out to even play at the level of Garcon, Collie and Tamme? The cap didn't factor into the decision. Okay. I misunderstood you then. Jabar Gaffney was/is a good receiver. You are understating how good he really is. I guess you're right. It was all in the plans for Brady to throw an INT to Marlon McCree just so Troy Brown can force a fumble. And it was all part of the plan for Brady to throw 3 INTs in the 2007 AFCCG just so the defense can bail them out right? Other than those 2 lucky wins he beat below average teams since Weis left. Brady was given talented players. Why didn't any of them turn into a Marvin Harrison or Reggie Wayne or Edgerrin James? Maroney, Jackson, Johnson and Branch were players the Pats invested a high draft pick in and none of them became top tier players. Why is that?
I am referring to Garcon, Collie, Blair White, Jacob Tamme, Brandon Stokley etc. These are a bunch of guys that if they were playing elsewhere would never have the type of success they are having w/ Manning. My question to junc is that the Patriots have invested high draft picks to help him on offense, so why hasn't he been able to elevate those guys?
Obviously QBs as great as Brady and Manning make guys around them better, my point about the talent is a)Manning has had more of it around him and that helps and b)the talent this year was still pretty damn good even w/ all the injuries. Jabar Gaffney was never/is not a good WR, on a good team he's at best a #3. Brady got a gift w/ the fumble against SD just like Manning got a gift a year earlier when Pitt fumbled and Indy returned it near midfield. The difference is Brady took advantage and Peyton did not. he was never given a Marvin Harrison or reggie Wayne or Edge.
