Short dinking and dunking, getting the ball out of the QBs hands quickly with short safe passes. Randy Moss made QBs better. What's the difference between the players arond Cassel this year versus last year? Thomas Jones and Tony Moeaki? Come on. That wasn't the difference between '09 and '10. Brady has not become a better QB since Weis left.
If you think he's better now than he was in the Weis guided system you're nuts. His playoff play has been much worse. He's 5-5 since Weis left and 2 of those wins came against a decent but not great Jaguars team and two lucky wins against the Chargers. His stats look great but one year was with Randy Moss who made QBs better and the 2nd great statistical year was a season where the majority of his passes were glorified handoffs.
To be fair Brady did play very well this season despite not having Moss for more than half of it. Really the only 2 bad games he had this year were Week 2 against us then the Divisional Playoffs. I don't think there's much of a question that Brady had a better year this year than Manning. But this year's aberration aside I still think Manning has had a more impressive career when you consider the supporting cast he's had.
Oh yeah how could I forget poor Peyton and his band of bums: Freeney,Mathis,Harrison,Wayne,Clark,Saturday,Marshall Faulk,James,Garcon,Bob Sanders,etc
The Brady vs Manning debate is probably similar to Starr vs Jurgensen debates in the 1960s. Starr has five rings, Jurgensen has the "fantasy stats" as nyjunc would say. (Jurgensen does have a NFL championship ring, but it was acquired as a backup.) Jurgensen threw deep down the field far more often than Starr did. Vince Lombardi coached both. There are quotes from Lombardi that would point to him thinking Jurgensen was the better quarterback. years in which these QBs led the league in a statistical category- Jurgensen passing attempts- 1966, 1967, 1969 completions- 1961, 1966, 1967, 1969 completion percentage- 1970 yards- 1961, 1962, 1966, 1967, 1969 YPA- 1962 TDs- 1961, 1967 fewest INTs among QBs who qualified for passing title- 1973, 1974 Starr completion percentage- 1962, 1966, 1968, 1969 YPA- 1966, 1967, 1968 fewest INTs among QBs who qualified for passing title- 1963, 1966, 1968, 1969 Jurgensen- 218 games played, 149 starts, 2433 completions Starr- 196 games played, 158 starts, 1808 completions
There were already rumblings about his job early in 2001, w/o Brady rescuing that sinking ship BB would not have been coaching NE in 2002. Woodhead is successful b/c of the QB, the QB can win w/ any talent which he has proven over the years. Manning easily had top 10 wepaons on O, Wayne and Garcon are one of the best tandems in the league, they have decent RBs(the great playcaller abandons the run), Tamme showed he can play in this league. He's used to top 2-3 talent, he "only" had top 10. poor guy. Welker is an average receiver at best w/ Moss taking all the attention away from him. I think we saw that after Moss wastraded. NE's best WR was deion Branch, a guy who was a failure in Seattle w/ a good QB like Hasselbeck. I like Brandon Tate but he hasn't done much at this level other than being a good KR. Danny Woodhead is the definition of average, we saw how he did nothing for us when he was playing in 2009. It's sickening how you make excuse after ezxcuse for manning and act like he has had to win in spite of the incredible talent around him his entire career. Was he rebuilding early 2001 w/o Brady? isn't it a coincidence how the revuiling ended and they started winning once Brady became the starter? he really is a genius! It doesn't debunk anything. Ben had a 35 rating in the title game and was Pitt's MVP. Peyton had a great rating against Pitt '05 but he cost his team the game. Don't be fooled by ratings. How has weis done since he left Brady? Manning threw 3 TDs and 7 INts in the postseason run where he won his only SB. In Brady's 3 runs: 11 Tds, 3 INTs The difference btw Indy and NE the last decade or so has been play at QB in Jan/Feb. A great defense that has allowed the same amount of points in regulation as the supposed bad Colts D's in postseason? A great coach that was HORRIBLE w/o Brady? Dungy made a conf title game w/ Shaun king as his QB in TB, BB never made aconf title game w/o Brady. You try to devalue what Brady has done b/c he "sinks and dunks". The bottom line is he has gotten the job doen alot more often than he hasn't. I love when you guys use the matt cassel line, didn't Cassel lead another team to the playoffs this year? and cassel was 10-5 as a starter in 2008, Brady was 16-0. That's 5 MORe losses. Give the 2010 Jets 5 more less and we are 5-11, do you think that is a big difference? Oh and the '08 pats had a MUCH easier schedule thant he 2007 Pats. The great belichick/Weis system which has never won anything w/o tom Brady running it. Did Sonny have a team as good as Bart? Manning has had BY FAR the better weapons(outside of a year or 2) and the D's have given up almost the exact same amount of points in regulation in postseason. It's not just about winning championships, dan marino didn't have title taletn around him as he elevated average talent to postseasons but Peyton has had SB talent around him 90% of his career and he has just one SB BECAUSE of his choking. NE became a dynasty BECAUSE of the big play in big spots of Brady. That's the difference.
There weren’t “rumblings” that Belichick was going to be fired. Certainly not within the Patriots organization. The Krafts loved Belichick when he was as Assistant Coach there in 1996. Belichick had their complete support. Maybe there were rumblings in the media, but there certainly was no rumblings inside the Patriots organization. Please stop insinuating that there were. Woodhead is successful because of the system they run. Manning did not have top 10 talent in 2010. You way overrate Pierre Garcon. Garcon drops too many passes and there was even mention of him losing his job this year. Tamme “showed he can play in this league” because he benefited from playing with Manning. Welker is the best Slot receiver in the entire league. He absolutely had success after Moss was traded. Welker was NE’s best receiver. Woodhead did nothing for us because we did not utilize his skill set like NE does. They signed over 20 Free Agents going into the 2001 season. They were putting the pieces together. The Pats offense was better with Brady than with Bledsoe. No one denies that. Bledsoe was a former Super Bowl Quarterback, so clearly he could and did play at a high level. What you fail to consider are that the reasons why their offense was better with Brady than Bledsoe. First the system fit Brady’s skill set better. Bledsoe needed perfect protection and was not fit to throw the quick screens and short dump off passes. It just wasn’t his style. He needed time to throw and a deep threat but did not have their best downfield threat (Terry Glenn). Brady was much better at the short dinking and dunking system they used. He was also better than Bledsoe at adjusting when the play broke down while Bledsoe would crumble. In 2000 Bledsoe played well checking the ball down and throwing shorter passes (despite having an injured thumb) with a better completion % and the lowest amount of INTs in his career. But he was sacked 45 times (4th most in the NFL) playing behind a terrible OL and always looking to push the ball down the field. It wasn’t a good fit. Turned a below average QB in an efficient mistake free division winning QB. I devalue it because it doesn’t impress me. Aaron Rodgers impresses me. Phillip Rivers impresses me. Ben Roethlisberger impresses me. And Peyton Manning impresses me. Dinking and dunking does not impress me and I don’t put a premium in that style of play. Matt Cassel lead another team to the playoffs while playing in the Patriots system. What did he do last year before Weis got there? The 2008 Pats did not have a “much” easier schedule than they did in 2007. In 2007 they had a division where the other three teams combined for 12 wins. Wow.
^Your whole premise is completely ridiculous. If it were as simple as "dinking and dunking down the field" en route to a 14-2 record then everybody would be doing it. Obviously you aren't watching the Pats play very much. lol "Glorified handoffs" for 36 TDs and 4 picks. Wow. Every offensive coordinator in the league is a dumbass and every Quarterback in the league must really just want a challenge if they are better and aren't emulating what Brady does. I know experts' opinion isn't everything but you dont get the 1st unanimous MVP EVER from being unimpressive. Stop shock posting
I think you misunderstood why I made the comparison to Starr vs Jurgensen, but that is my fault. Jurgensen, like Manning, was the more naturally gifted quarterback. Brady, like Starr, was the lesser naturally gifted quarterback. In both cases, the more naturally gifted QB was not as big a winner as the lesser naturally gifted QB. As a result, in both cases, a debate could be had. Who is better: the guy who wins or the guy who is fancier and puts up better numbers? It was not a great comparison because Jurgensen didn't make many playoff appearances. To be exact he played in one playoff game. It came in 1974 and was his final game. He went 6 of 12 for 78 yards with 0 TDs and 3 INTs in a loss at Los Angeles. At least Manning got to the postseason regularly. It was not a great comparison because both Manning and Brady have won NFL championships as starters. Jurgensen never won a championship as a starter. Maybe Staubach vs Bradshaw or Marino vs Montana would have been better comparisons to make. For the record, I side with you in the Manning vs Brady debate. I was in Morgantown for the 1998 draft. Leading up to that draft I remember telling all my football friends that Manning had to go #1 over Ryan Leaf because Manning is incredibly gifted. I didn't care much for Leaf. I didn't see him as a special quarterback. At the time, I had absolutely no idea he was jackass, though. As much as I liked Manning's talent, I was extremely concerned about his inability to defeat the Gators. He played incredibly passive in those games. It caused me to wonder if Manning was going to wilt in big games in the NFL.
do people really believe that brady has better offensive weapons than manning? peyton has better weapons and it's really not all that close. and that's not taking anything away from manning.
Do you watch the Pats games? It's all about the yards AFTER the catch. The Pats surround Brady with small, quick receivers who are great in space. This isn't shock posting, this is fact.
If it were that simple... If it were as simple as surrounding him with small, quick receivers who were great in space, then every team would do it. Wes Welker was undrafted, Branch was had for a 4th round pick from Seattle, Hernandez was a 4th round pick, Edelman was a 7th rounder, Woodhead - lol, etc... Only Gronkowski was a high pick, and even then - not a first rounder, and he was used mainly as a vertical passing threat or a blocker - he wasn't exactly a miss tackles guy. Every QB can throw 10 yards accurately. There are about a hundred guys in college who can do it too. It takes an exceptional talent however to read the defenses, to find the open guy, to hit him in stride, etc... It's true Brady throws downfield less than Peyton does, but that doesn't make what he does easier. If it was easier, then presumably Peyton would try it too, and not throw all those extra picks. Except he's Peyton's got a legit blue chip WR to throw to as well in Reggie Wayne. I don't see why we should give Peyton a pass for the picks just because he throws downfield more.
You're right. A quick search: http://www.boston.com/sports/footba.../12/09/patriots_have_been_racking_up_the_yac/ Interesting. It's a Boston source saying basically what I was saying in another thread. The Pats scheme for years (albeit altered a bit when Moss was in town) has been to emphasize spacing and quickness in order to boost accuracy and efficiency in the passing game. Brady's accuracy and the effectiveness of that scheme are why he'll be remembered as the best.
Not every team has Tom Brady. Besides, it's not simple. It's anything but simple. If it were, every team would be able to stop it. Congratulations, you've just highlighted how good the Pats are at identifying players who fit what they want to do. Nobody does a better job of matching personnel. It's been that way for a decade now. Bringing Moss in was a departure from that, which caught the league a bit off guard. It adjusted, and the Pats went right back to the formula that works for them. Yep. And that's exactly who Brady is. No, Peyton shouldn't get a pass for the picks, but you have to recognize the types of throws and the spacing the offense creates go a long way toward Brady's accuracy. He's perfectly suited for that offense. Could he play in Peyton's offense? Sure, although I don't think he could handle a lot of what gets put on Peyton's shoulders. Could Peyton play in Brady's offense? Sure, although I don't think he'd have the patience to cede full control over the offense. What Brady does IS easier. That doesn't change the fact that he's better at what he does than Peyton is at what he does.
This. Like I said earlier. The personnel that the Pats have are not players who were hard to get. And they "system" sounds fairly simple. If Brady is not impressive and putting up those kind of numbers, winning MVP awards and winning 14 games despite a bad defense then others should try not to impress us so much with downfield throws
yes there were, they were very loud rumblings. There was talk he wouldn't even survive the season. The Krafts also love winning and off of his failure in cleveland then going 5-11 in year 1 and starting 0-2 in yr 2 they were not winning. Garcon lit up our "great #2 CB", Garcon is also destroyed us last year int he title game. Garcon is a very talented player. A blind man could see that, that duo was one of the best in the NFL. Tamme was a 4th rd pick, he had talent. Polian is a pretty good GM, wouldn't you say? He got his shot when Clakr went down. he's not Dallas Clark but he's a good TE, one that most QBs don't have. Welker led the league in drops, I thought you couldn't be good if you dropped the football? Welker is a nice player, he lost his effectiveness after Moss. w/ Moss for 4 games(first 4 after his injury): 26 recs-217 yds-3 TDs w/o Moss for 12 games: 60 recs- 631 yds- 4 TDs avg. w/ Moss: 6.5 recs, 54.3 yds, .75 TDs avg. w/o Moss: 5 recs, 52.6 yds, .33 TDs and he was a complete non factor in the playoff loss. Branch was NE's best WR. They added low cost, low risk FAs. That's not the way to build a championship team. Those were stopgap guys bringing a veteran presence to a team that he hoped would be competitive. they struck lightning w/ Brady, w/o him that team isn't a playoff team. if no one denies the O was better w/ Brady than Bledsoe why AFTER the 2000 season did BB give Bledsoe a $100 million dollar deal? So after seeing film of Bledsoe for7 years, being an ass't coach for one year then seeing him up close as his HC for a year he decided to give Drew a record deal while he had Brady on the roster. Why was that? How did that below average QB do at home in the WC rd? They beat ONE playoff bound team all year and that team was 7-9 seattle. That will make a QB look better. The 2007 schedule was MUCH more difficult, the division stunk(in large part to guaranteeing 2 losses against the Pats for every team). The dolphins were not a good team and they won 11 games against that similar weak schedule. In 2007 NE played and beat 4 eventual division champions PLUS the SB winning team. The sched was much toughr in '07, their only wins over playoff bound teams were against Arizona at home(they stunk ont he road) and miami. If it was so easy and led to winning then doesn't that make someone like peyton foolish for not doing it? The game is about wins and losses not aout great #s. The difference is manning has had better teams areound him, much better talent around him on offense and comparable defenses. The differnce btw NE and Indy has been play at QB in January, I don't know what Washington's problem was w/ Sonny.
No, there weren’t loud rumblings or soft rumblings. But maybe I’m wrong. Please provide everyone with some piece of factual information that says his job was in jeopardy. Maybe I am wrong and haven’t done enough research on the subject. But YOU have to provide me with that information. If you cannot then it proves that I am right that Belichick’s job was NOT in danger. And I want something from a team representative. It’s on you to provide that information because I’ve looked and NOT found anything to confirm what you’ve been trying to sell. The Krafts loved Belichick and were not looking to get rid of him. Belichick had their 100% support of what BB & SP were trying to do. Garcon beat Cromartie on one play. Big deal. It was a complete collapse on Cromartie and Pool. He beat a terrible Lito Sheppard. He also has the best QB in the league throwing to him. Who cares where he was drafted. He doesn’t put up those numbers elsewhere. Welker did not lose his effectiveness after Moss. And yes, he was a non factor in the p/o loss.. So was Brady. Seems to go hand in hand. Branch is NOT NE’s best WR. Welker is. They brought in veteran leaders and rebuilt the OL. They brought in a physical runner who had a great season for them. They brought in many role players that fit into the system they were building. They did not just bring in “low cost, low risk FA’s” BB didn’t give Bledsoe $100 M. Kraft did. Get your facts straight. And Kraft admitted this was a big mistake and is one of the main reasons why he stays out of most roster decisions now. You praise Cassel on one hand by saying he can play in this league then you belittle his accomplishments. I guess it depends on which argument you’re trying to make. Cassel is a better QB in the Patriots system (2008 / 2010) than he is when he’s not in it (2009). NE didn’t have six games against weak AFCE teams in 2008 like they did in 2007. Yeah, Brady was surrounded by scrubs like Adam Vinatieri the best Kicker in league history, Ty Law, Willie McGinest, Tedy Bruschi, Lawyer Milloy, Corey Dillon, Troy Brown, Kevin Faulk, Rodney Harrison, Asante Samuel, Richard Seymour, Deion Branch, Mike Vrabel, Vince Wilfork, Ty Warren, Matt Light, Mike Compton, Antowian Smith, Joe Andruzzi, Ted Washington, Damien Woody etc. etc.
Here's a nice article: http://www.bostonsportsmedia.com/2005/04/bill-belichick-and-the-new-england-media Garcon beat Cromartie all game long, he single handedly kept Indy in the game. he may not put up those #s elsewhere since Manning relies on his TEs but he's still good enough to play in this league. You act like he's some scrub they picked up off the street. Branch was their best WR this year and it wasn't close. The ame Branch who was a non factor w/ a good QB in Seattle. They brought those guys to compete, not to build a championship around them. BB ran the team, he gave Bledsoe the big deal. Cassel can play, he's never going to be a big time QB but he can play. he can play the way Kyle Orton can play or Rex grossman. The AFC East was better in 2008 but it wasn't great. The dolphins won the division and they were an ok team. The 2007 sched was MUCH more difficult than the 2008 sched. Those great defensive players were the same guys who choked or try to choke away many big games. Troy Brown was average at best Antowain Smith was average at best Andruzzi was a decent OL Branch is an average player(did you see what he did w/o Bardy? neither did anyone else). In Brady's career he has had Corey Dillon(at the end of his career) and Randy Moss(for 1-2 seasons where he tried) as big time offensive weapons. Of course that doesn't compare to thsoe scrubs manning has had to play w/ his entire career- Faulk, James, Addai, Wayne, Clark, etc...
