They are team stats BUT the QB is the most important position on the field and Brady and manning are their teams best players so when they play great they generally win and when they struggle the team tends to struggle.
Junc I feel both can be overrated but I feel in history Manning is a top 5 QB despite only 1 ring. Without him that team is no better than 4-12 every year. Any QB that makes an 8+ game swing is def worth top 5 all time imo. With the Pats it's a system. No Brady? (Cassell) No fuckin problem. Sure they missed the playoffs but they were 11-5 and the hottest team to finish the year. They were this year's packers except this year the pack made it and that 08 pats team didn't.
If they had a decent QB that Indy team would be in the playoffs every year w/ or w/o him. NE went from 16 wins w/ Brady as a starter to 10 wins w/ cassell as a starter against a MUCH easier schedule. 6 wins is a HUGE difference and cassel did just lead KC to the playoffs, right? So it's not like Curtis Painter coming in. Cassel is a guy who can play in this league and they still missed the playoffs. Brady lost Randy Moss and had one of the best reg seasons ever for a QB, Manning lost a few players and fell apart.
It's not just about winning SBs, it's about playing your best when it matters most. Both NE and Indy have had SB caliber teams around their QBs, the biggest reason NE became a dynasty was b/c of the play of the QB. The biggest reason Indy didn't become a dynasty was b/c of the play at QB.
You seriously think Indy would have more than 1 ring in the last decade if someone like Donovan McFag or Matt Cassel was their QB?
The only time Brady has ever been successful as a down field passer was when he had Randy Moss who has elevated nearly every QB he has ever played with. He made Pennington a 1st round pick, Randall Cunningham had his best season throwing to him, Jeff George had one of his best seasons throwing to him and had his best record as a starting QB that year (1999), Daunte Culpepper made a fortune off of throwing to Moss and Brady set the record for most TDs in a single season throwing to Moss (although he did it by throwing 81 more passes than the previous record holder :smile. But when it came time to march down the field they went back to their dinking and dunking style in SB XLI. Brady is not a QB who can beat you down the field. He has lived off of guys like Kevin Faulk, Troy Brown, Wes Welker, Danny Woodhead etc. Again, that's fine, it's just not something I give a lot of respect to. I fear the system more than Brady. When we play the Colts I fear Manning.
No, I said if they had a decent QB they'd be a playoff team but they didn't win the SB in '06 b/c of manning. he did not have a great postseason outside of the one great half against NE. Chad played 2 more years w/o Randy and earned his way into the 1st rd by proving it wasn't all Moss. Brayd could throw downfield before Moss and after Moss. Deion Branch went from 8.6 yards per w/ Seatttle to 14.7 w/ Brady this year. 81 more passes and actually having to deal w/ the elements unlike the previous record holder PLUS he had a higher YPA. Brady can and has beaten teams many different ways. he has taken average to below average talent and won SBs and set records. What peyton ended the season w/ was better talent on O than Brady has had for most of his career. Again, that system has never won anything w/o Brady.
Branch's YPC isn't much different than his career average. Comparing his numbers from Seattle where he wasn't a large focal point is meaningless. While Brady hasn't had Marvin Harrison and Edgerrin James, he had players that fit the Patriots system well. Kevin Faulk, Troy Brown, David Patten, Deion Branch, Wes Welker, Danny Woodhead are all guys that NE utilizes extremely well. There's a reason why many members on here recognize that Woodhead would not have had the same level of success here as he had in NE. Brady does not beat teams down the field. He beats them by dumping the ball off in perfectly designed plays that allow the receiver to get the ball in space with blockers. I think the thing that gets lost in these debates is that I don't think Brady is a terrible QB. I really do think he's one of the greats. I just have him lower on the list because he seriously feel a lot of his success is made off of the efforts of his teammates.
Players that w/o him didn't have much success in that system. All average to below average guys, manning couldnt' survive w/ the talent Brady has had. Brady can beat a defense any way.
It's not like Brady gets 16 wins a season though. That's a little unfair of a comparrison imo. In a regular season the Pats typically get around 12 wins. They were right around that with Matt. Also aboutu the supporting cast around him, besides Wayne and Clark the other colts players wouldn't exactly be all-stars without him either. Granted if you take the QBs away from both teams the Colts offense is still better but it's every year before 07 of Brady's that scares me. He was never really that good until the 18-1 season. Since THAT year he's been better than Manning but I feel in the long haul Manning has had and will have had the better career.
The Patriots have put together a good system. They get players that fit that system. A lot of those players wouldn't be successful elsewhere. Gerard Warren and Danny Woodhead are two examples of this. Where you fail to understand is that with the Patriots it's the system that makes the players successful and with the Colts it's the Quarterback that makes the players successful. If Ryan Leaf went to the Colts instead of Peyton Manning, Marvin Harrison would have drifted around the league for a few years NEVER reaching the level he did. That's just one example. This year alone Manning "survived" with mediocre receivers (outside of Wayne) and no running game. He would have been just fine with the "below average" type of guys that Brady had. Manning has elevated the game of Brandon Stokley, Jacob Tamme, Pierre Garcon, Blair White, Austin Collie etc.
+1. Junc I was about to post something similar but Murrell just nailed it better than I would have. I also agree with the fear system vs fear Manning theory he posted before.
They were coming off 16-0 though so it is a fair comparison. They faced a MUCH easier schedule in 2008 and lost 5 more games- that is a HUGE # from one year to the next. If we lose 5 more next year we'll be 6-10, is that good? Brady never put up the great fantasy numbers until '07 but he was great long before '07. It's not a coincidence that NE took off the moment Brady stepped on the field. The position is not about just great #s, great #s become meaningless if they cannot be reproduced in postseason and that has been peyton's biggest problem. reg season win %: Manning: 141-67, 68% Brady: 111-32, 78% post season win %: Manning: 9-10, 47% Brady: 14-5, 74% Manning's goes dramaticcaly down and w/ this latest loss Brady's finally goes down but it is still in line w/ his reg season win %.
What has that system won w/o Brady? Belichick was fired in Cleveland and was on the verge of being fired in NE. Check his coaching tree- where else has that system been successful? Danny Woodhead is successful b/c of Brady, Brady can win w/ anyone. Manning struggled winning w/ top 10 talent this year. The talent level on offense hasn't been close outside of the year and a half Randy Moss tried. Brady IS the system.
Again, what has that system won w/o Brady? BB was a failure in Cleveland and was about to become a failure in NE until Brady rescued him. Chek out the record of BB w/ and w/o Brady then tell me about his system.
No 6-10 wouldn't be good. IDK where you're going with that.. Also, this is just another issue of teams winning games vs QBs winning games. It's all team to me but to you its QB. I don't take rings or team wins into account when debating QBs. That's why we can't agree. Some coaches just take time to develop into a great head coach. Plus the cheating helped.
I am using a 5 loss difference like NE had from 2007 to 2008 to show how huge of a difference that is. If they have such great records in the reg season why can't Peyton win in postseason? Watching all of his postseason games he is the biggest reason why they haven't won as much as they should have and watching all of Brady's postseason games he is the reason they won more than they should have. It's not all on the QB but many of those games came down to how well(or poorly) the QB played. Isn't it interesting that in 2000 in NE he was 5-11 and in 2001 he started 0-2 then Brady became the starter and magically they went 11-3 the rest of the season and won the SB?
Belichick was not on the verge of getting fired in NE. That offensive system has been successful in other places. We've been over this many times. Danny Woodhead is successful because he fits the system that NE runs. Manning did NOT have top 10 talent this year and Brady wouldn't do as well elsewhere. Moss when trying elevated the New England offense. But having Moss on their team forced them to get away from what made them a championship team. Don't act like Brady had a bunch of scrubs on his team this year. Welker is the best slot receiver in the game and Deion Branch is a good receiver that plays well in Pats system. Brandon Tate is another young talented receiver who would have likely been a 1st round pick if it wasn't for a knee injury. Danny Woodhead is an extremely elusive runner after the catch and is a perfect match for the Patriots system. They have two top level young TE's who are mismatches for many LB's. Please stop exaggerating the talent around Brady. It's sickening how you act like Manning had all world players around him this year while Brady is stuck with 2nd rate losers.
