His last 20 games prior to the 2004 NFL Draft he was horrible. He won only 4 games for them in the most recent stretch prior to that draft. He didn’t look like a franchise QB. They had every reason to believe that he wasn’t a franchise QB. It’s a moot point anyway. Most of the players from the 1980’s AFC Championship Browns teams had retired. Those players weren’t there when Belichick got there to instill a “winning attitude”. Belichick rebuilt that team into a playoff team and a contender. He did so by turning over the roster and bringing in a new QB. I never said he did a great job and he clearly made some mistakes, but he had done some good things with that team. He learned from his mistakes before going to NE. Most teams would like to have better than 4 playoff appearances with a post season record of 2-4 especially one with a “winning attitude”. In 1995 everyone was aware that a move was imminent long before the official announcement. They lost to two playoff teams and one from the year before prior to the announcement. The two college QBs are Brady Quinn and Jimmy Claussen. The two pro QBs are Matt Cassel and Kyle Orton. Two of them had a lot of success at the college level and now Cassel and Orton are having success at the Pro level. Orton is having his best years as a pro in this system. Brady = 0 (ZERO) SB Titles w/o Vinatieri, Weis, top rated defense. Pats D – the single reason the Pats were up 14 in SB XXXVI They didn’t play in SB XXXVII Pats D – the single reason why the Pats weren’t blown out in SB XLII. The Pats mediocre offensive performance puts up a lowly 14 points.
That's the fault of SD for giving up too quickly on the guy, again many other teams could have done the same w/ their QBs but they stuck it out and it paid off. The bottom line w/ BB in Cleveland is that he was a failure, the bottom line w/ BB's career w/o Brady is that he has been a failure. The #s don't lie in this case: Bill Belichick w/ Tom Brady(8+ seasons, 136 games): 104-32, 76% 7 playoff apps 7 division titles 4 AFC Titles 3 SB Titles 14-4 playoff record BB w/o Tom Brady(7+ seasons, 113 games): 51-62, 45% 1 playoff app 1-1 playoff record ZERO div titles ZERO AFC Title Game apps ZERO AFC Titles ZERO SBs Cleveland made 3 AFC Title Games from 1986-1989, how did they have a 2-4 record? The excuses keep piling up, how come w/ all that great talent in a new City w/ an energized fan base the ravens didn't win in 1996? Brady Quinn and Jimmy Clausen?:rofl::rofl: Come on. Average college QBs that have shown nothing at the next level(Clausen has plenty of time to change that), 2 guys who never won a big game in college and were humiliated in bowl games. Cassell isn't doing anything special in KC and last I checked he never made a postseason in this league. Orton is having a great fantasy year but there wasn't much difference in his #s from 2008 in Chi to 2009 in Denver. Oh and he has led a team to the playoffs...when he was in Chicago! Weis as an OC and BB as a HC would have zero SB titles if they didn't get lucky w/ Brady. Games are 4 qtrs long, right? It's great that NE's D played great for 3 qtrs but they sucked when the game was on the line and were rescued by Brady just like the NE franchise was rescued by Brady as they wouldn't have been a playoff team in 2001 w/o Brady. The pats O had a much tougher task facing that Giant D w/ all those pas rushers than NE's D did against that mediocre offense and despite all of that Brady and the O handed the D a 4 pt lead w/ 2 1/2 to play and they blew it allowing that mediocre O to march 83 yds in just over 2 mins.
Brees didn’t give them any reason not to give up on him. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? He had been there for 3 seasons. And when he got the chance to play showed very little and got worse over time. Belichick learned from his first head coaching experience. And that showed when he had a QB who hadn’t start a game since H.S. go 10-6 for him. I’m presenting facts. Pittsburgh went 2-4 in the 1980’s postseason. Quinn and Claussen both excelled in this system in college. That is a fact. You just said the other day how well Cassell is doing for the Chiefs and now you are saying that he isn’t doing anything special? Can you at least keep your argument straight please. Orton did okay in Chicago, but it was mostly the defense that got them into the postseason. He’s leading an average Denver team that just lost their best player. He’s doing great with little to work with. It’s a QB friendly system with 4 success stories. I know you don’t believe this, but TEAMS win and lose games. Not QBs. If Weis got lucky with Brady then why hasn’t Brady won a SB w/o him? Why hasn't Brady won a SB w/o Vinateri? Why hasn't Brady won a SB w/o a top rated defense? Brady wouldn’t have ever been in the position to win SB XXXVI if it weren’t for the defense. The defense caused turnovers that directly led to 17 of their points including an INT returned for a TD by Ty Law. That same Pats O put up 38 against those Giants IN Giants Stadium only a few weeks earlier. They played arrogantly and Brady played poorly. They only put up 14 points and lost because of their offense.
I guess he magically got better overnight for the 2004 season. Forget everything I said, obviously SD made the right choice. There's no way Brees would ever be a good QB and they had to take a chance on another QB. That team was UNDEFEATED the year before and won SIX less games w/ cassell starting! That is a HUGE difference. Obviously Belichick is a better coach now than he was in Cleveland but w/o Brady he doesn't have a championship. It's funny, you crow about Belichick making one postseason where he got demolished in the div rd then you try to take away from Pitt making 4 apps and making a title game. Quinn and Clausen were never great college QBs despite playing at ND and playing those weak schedules they play. Neither ever beat USC, neither ever beat a top team. Obviously Cassell can play, that doesn't make him special. he's never going to be a top tier QB but he can play in this league. 4 success stories but only one of those success stories includes a championship or even being close to a championship. Brady led NE to 4 SBs and 5 title games, Orton/Cassell have been to ZERO postseasons in that system, the college QBs never were close to a title game and only made BCS games b/c they were Notre Dame where they got humiliated in BCS games. Teams do win and lose but a top QB can make a huge difference, the biggest difference btw Indy and NE over the last decade has been the postseason play at QB. If there was a sense of urgency earlier in that game maybe NE's O gets it going sooner? we don't know how that game plays out if SL isn't held in check. What we do know is those SL's O never went crazy scoring in title game or SBs and NE's D choked big time in the 4th qtr only to be rescued by Brady. The reg season and SB are 2 different games, last I checked Brady wasn't walking around in a boot the week of the reg season game. Every game is different, the Pats D gave up a ton of pts in that game too but in the SB they held down the Giants until winning time- when Brady got the job done and the Pats D did not...AGAIN.
There’s no reason to get upset. My point has been a valid one the whole time while yours has not. SD cannot predict the future and w/ the information they had felt (rightly so at the time) that Brees was not going to be there franchise QB. 10 wins is a winning record, and w/ a QB that did not start a game since H.S. is pretty impressive. If Brady is the reason they have those SBs then why haven’t they have one w/o Weis, Vinatieri or a top rated defense? I’ve asked that question several times now and I’m still waiting for an answer. I’m not taking away from Pitt’s playoff apps in the 80’s, but there wasn’t a SB app once those players from the 70’s left. It’s funny how everyone except Brady plays “weak schedules”. The fact is they both developed into NFL caliber QBs by playing in Weis’ offensive system. Cassel and Kyle Orton are both doing very well w/in that system as well. This is what we know about the Pats offense from SB XXXVI – The Patriots did not score one single point w/o the aid of a turnover caused by the defense until the last drive when the Rams dropped into a soft zone giving Brady the underneath option to Redmond – who picked up a majority of the yards himself - and having Vinatieri win the game w/ a 48 yd FG. Oh right… Brady was injured…. The loss in SB XLII goes on the offense for putting up 24 fewer points against the same defense they played only a few weeks earlier. Every game may be different but that doesn’t excuse the offense for scoring only 14 points which was not enough points to win. It’s not like they put up 27 and lost…they scored only FOURTEEN POINTS! The Pats defense played good enough to win. Even on the last drive it still took a miracle of a play for the Giants to score.
Who is getting upset? This isn't really a debate, the Chargers made a mistake. They had a franchise QB on their roster and they couldn't properly evaluate him. Their scouts and coaches screwed up. That's great but they won SIX LESS games than the year before, that is an incredible # and did so against a creampuff schedule. They had ONE win against a playoff bound team in 2008(the fraud Dolphins). They had the best talent around him that NE had all decade. Did BB do a good job? absolutely but you are acting like he won w/ Kyle mackey. Cassell was on that roster for years learning under the best QB in the game and he has clearly proven himself a capable starter in this league. They haven't won one w/o Weis and co. b/c the D blew SB XLII and then Brady got hurt. Brady led an offense w/ no running game and Jabar Gaffney & Reche Caldwell as his top 2 WRs to the AFC Championship Game and if his D doesn't collapse they go to another SB. How come Weis has never won anything w/o Brady? Pitt was a dynasty in the 70s, do you expect that to continue for decades? W/ teams that probably had no business being good they won alot of games and had a bunch of playoff apps. It's funny how you knock Pitt for making a title game and 4 playoff apps yet praise Belichick for one playoff app and a div rd humiliation. Kyle Orton had success BEFORE playing in that system and led a team to the playoffs- has he done that in Denver? How many playoff apps has Cassell led his teams to? That's great but the Pats O led by Brady at their own 17 w/ just over a minute to play and NO timeouts drove for the game winning FG to save the "great" Pats D from yet another failure in a big spot. So when Sanchez led us to the comeback at Detroit and dumped it off to LT that means he doesn't get credit? If it is so easy to dump off and win why hasn't the brilliant Manning picked up on it? Why was he throwing balls into the EZ on 2nd and 3rd and 2 against Pitt in the div rd of '05 from the Pitt 28 instead of dumping it off and getting in better FG range? The pats O was held in check most of the game but when it was winning time they came through. I find it absolutely hysterical that you will bash Brady for their O struggling in the SB loss but you never bash Manning? and in Manning's playoff losses he has never led a drive like Brady led. Indy: 1999: reg season avg: 26 PPG, postseason loss scored 16. -10 2000: reg season avg: 27 PPG, postseason loss 17. -10 2002: Reg season avg: 22 PPG, postseason loss ZERO. -22 2003: reg season avg: 28 PPG, postseason loss 14. -14 2004: Reg season avg: 33 PPG, postseason loss 3. -30 2005: Reg season avg: 27 PPG, postseason loss 18. -9 2007: reg season avg: 28 PPG, postseason loss: 24. -4 2008: Reg season avg: 24 PPG, postseason loss 17. -7 2009: reg season avg: 26 PPG, postseason loss 17. -9 In their 9 postseasons where they lost they averaged scoring 13 less PPG than their reg season avg and in not one of those games did he lead his team to a late score to take the lead only to watch his D blow it. The Pats D was handed a 4 pt lead and the opposing mediocre O taking over at their 17 w/ 2 1/2 to play. They had the luxury of knowing they could allow 82 yards, all they had to do was keep that mediocre NYG offense out of the EZ in the final 2 1/2 minutes and they failed just like in 2 of their 3 SB wins but this time they weren't lucky enough to give Brady and the O enough time to rescue them.
The couldn’t properly evaluate him? He was 4-16 in his last 20 games and getting worse. Cassell played in a very good QB system and did well in it as he is now in that same system. Odd isn’t it. If Brady and the O put up more than 14 in SB XLII they would have won b/c the defense kept them in the game. Gaffney is an underrated receiver and is better than anyone he had during the Weis years (Patten, Branch and Brown). Brady doesn’t even get to the 2006 AFCCG if the Chargers don’t fumble an INT. If Brady led a touchdown drive in the 2nd half instead of FG drives they would have won. 2006 AFCCG Drives (2nd half) 1) 3 plays / 8 yds / Punt 2) 5 plays / 15 yds FG / Great field position due to Ellis Hobbs 80-yd KR 3) 3 plays / 8 yds / Punt 4) 5 plays / 33 yds / FG / Great field position due to Troy Brown 15 yd PR + 15 yd facemask penalty 5) 4 plays / 33 yds / FG 6) 3 plays / 6 yds / punt 7) 4 plays / 24 yds / INT I’m not knocking Pitt, you said that Belichick didn’t need to change the culture because they had players w/ a winning attitude. I wanted to know why the 70’s Packers, 80’s Steelers or 00’s Cowboys didn’t win with the players from the previous era passing along that winning attitude. But 4 p/o’s in 10 years isn’t exactly an elite decade. We went to the playoffs 5 times this past decade and I wouldn’t consider it anything but good w/o any Championships or SB apps. Kyle Orton played with a great defense. I am a big fan of Orton, but he didn’t do much to lead the Bears to the playoffs. That team was run by the defense. I know all you do is blame defenses but in the Bears case that’s the reason they went to the postseason. Cassel has KC in 1st place correct? And Orton is having a great year after losing his best player. Maybe if Brady doesn’t have TWO 3 and outs in the 4th quarter he would have “saved” the defense. Instead after the Rams went on a long drive Brady goes 3 and out. Then after a 4 minute 44 yd drive that the forced a punt on Brady led another 3 and out. The defense was exhausted – and who can blame them they carried the team on their back the whole game. You are so obsessed w/ Peyton Manning. I haven’t mentioned Manning at all. If Brady leads them to MORE THAN FOURTEEN POINTS then they win. What is so difficult about that for you to understand? For such an elite offense they only put up 14 points – well below their season average – meanwhile the Pats defense gave up only 17. It’s not like Brady put up 27 and lost. The offense didn’t get the job done.
4-16 in last 20 and 10-17 overall. Phil Simms was 14-20 to start his career and was 4-13 in a stretch in his 2nd and 3rd seasons starting. Troy Aikman didn't win a game his rookie year and was 7-19 his first 2 years. Bradshaw was 8-13 his first 2 years Pitt once cut Unitas, teams make mistakes. SD clearly made one w/ Brees. They are obviously fine at QB w/ Rivers but had they used that pick on another player it could have been the difference btw all their playoff failures and finally getting to and winning a SB. They scored 27 pts in the title game. They had a 21-6 halftime lead, as usual the D choked in the biggest spot but Brady couldn't rescue them w/ only a minute left nedding 70 yards and having Caldwell and Gaffney as his 2 biggest weapons. I love how you blame the O again, so if they put up 14 and give the D a lead in the final mins it's b/c of the O and if they score 27 and give the D a lead midway through the 4th it's the O's fault. I love it:rofl: Again, the 70s Packers replaced a legend The 80s Steelers had success The 00s Cowboys had terrible coaching We absolutely had a good 00s w/ 5 playoff apps and 4 postseason wins. It was our best decade in franchise history. Remember that Pitt was a terrible franchise untilt he 70s and they did quite well in the post dynasty 80s considering all the talent they lost. of course it's b/c of the D that Orton had success, how come his #s were very similar from 2008 to 2009 and in '08 Chi's D was 17th in PA and 21st in YA while in 2009 Denver's D was 7th in PA and YA? KC is tied for 1st right now and if the season ended today they'd be out of the playoffs on tiebreakers. Let's see Cassell get KC to the playoffs. NONE of those QBs outside of Brady have ever led that offense to a playoff game let alone a playoff win(or a big win in college w/ the ND QBs) W/ the game on the line(if that game gets to OT and SL wins the toss SL wins their 2nd SB in 3 years) Brady got the job done and led them to the GW FG. The basis for the argument is Brady vs. Manning. You hold Brady to a much higher standard than Manning even though you think manning is better. Brady led his O to 27 pts in the '06 title game(and they had a defensive TD for a total of 34) and they didn't win. That D was a choking D, if Brady leads NE to 24 pts, the D is allowing 27. You act like the game plays exactly the same way if he led them to 21 or 24 pts.
The NFL is a much different era today than it was back in those eras. It’s a win now league. Brees was 4-16 in his last 20 games prior to the 2004 draft. He did not show that he was getting better and in fact was getting worse. The Chargers had just ended an era of a QB bust and Brees looked to be another one. Brady had opportunities to get a TD throughout the 2nd half. They started their drives on average at their own 41 yard line. They had great field position throughout the 2nd half. Gaffney was better than any receiver he had in the earlier years so what’s the problem? They had an opportunity to put the game away but Brady did not capitalize on it including getting the ball at the Indy 21. That is Brady’s fault. The 70’s Packers, 80’s Steelers and 00’s Cowboys had players from their winning era’s and passed along a winning attitude yet those teams did not win any SBs past their dynasty years. Your theory of players passing along a “winning attitude” helps win games is wrong. Just because this decade was our best decade doesn’t mean it was a all time great one. 4 post seasons in 10 years isn’t great either. Why are you comparing the 2008 Bears w/ the 2009 Broncos? The 2008 Bears did not make the playoffs but the 2005 Bears did. The Bears defense allowed 12.6 ppg in 2005 and the Broncos defense allowed 20.2 ppg. KC is tied for FIRST. Yes, thank you. I already said that. Brady went 3 and out TWICE which did not allow the Pats defense to get enough rest. The Pats defense carried them all game long and led to all 17 of their points.
he struggled, he was a young QB on his 2nd HC and OC alreayd. That stuff is NORMAL. I can give you current examples. Eli: 1-6 his first year Palmer: 6-7 his first year Schaub: 4-9, 10-14 early in his career Freeman: 3-6 in his 1st year Young QBs struggle, espeically ones where thye have to learn a new system as a rookie and then another new system in year 2. They clearly made a mistake no matter what way you slice it. I would love to see peyton tyr to win games w/ Gaffney and Caldwell as his two best weapons. It's not just about winning SBs, clearly Cleveland had no shot at a SB under BB but one winning season in 5 years? one playoff year? That's a TERRIBLE job. 4 postseasons in 10 years isn't great but coming off one of the greatest dynasties the decade before it's pretty damn good. Only FOUR AFC teams(out of 14, Cle w/ 7, Mia w/ 5, Den w/ 5, Oak w/ 5) made more playoff apps in the 1980s than Pitt. But the #s from Orton were almost the same from '08 to '09 and he had a worse D in 2009, how could that be? ohh, Brady didn't allow the D to rest:rofl: Indy had the ball for 31 mins, NE had it for 29. The Pats D carried them by allowing 38 points:rofl:
He showed that he was regressing. That’s great that you point out 1st year QBs that struggled, but Brees was in his 3rd year and was 4-16 in his last 20 games prior to the 2004 draft. Early struggles are normal, but those QBs showed improvement in year 2. Oh, right…Garcon, Tamme, Collie, Brown, Gonzalez, White are all elite talent that raise Peyton’s level of play :rofl: Gaffney was better than any receiver Brady had during the SB years. BB rebuilt the Browns after they lost a lot of players from their winning seasons. Turned in a playoff season before Modell announced the team would move in 1995. Teams didn’t turn around quickly then like they do today. I’m sure you are aware of that. I didn’t say he did a great job, but the assumption that he was the same coach in 2000 that he was in the early 90’s is about as dumb of an idea as can be. What does 2008 have to do w/ 2005? You said Orton led the Bears to the playoffs and I said they went to the playoffs because of the defense. I’m talking about SB XXXVI. Brady had two 3 and out drives. The Pats D carried them all game long. You blame the D for that loss, but if Brady could have gotten 1 first down it may have given them enough rest to close out the game. Instead, after carrying the Pats all game long the D was gassed on that last drive. Luckily the Rams dropped into a soft zone to allow Brady to dump the ball of to Redmond who got most of the yards on his own.
You're more than welcome to chime in on the topic if you would like. I can't speak for junc, but I'd accept you w/ open arms :smile:
